Old 06-9-2008, 11:50 PM   #1
rebelrunner26
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Default Food For Thought

food for thought...just some ideas i've thought up being bored and having nothing better to do..i don't necessarily believe these, but i'm still happy to have imput as long as:
1)you don't just say it's stupid. that accomplishes nothing.
2)you don't back it up with a bible verse that can be easily negated with a different bible verse (people used the bible to support slavery. you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to use)
**not to be picky or anything...that just irritated me a good bit with the whole choose/born gay argument**

here goes...

what if heaven is universal for all religions? if man was made with one of the primary thought processes to be the capacity for religious belief, to me that somewhat proves that there is a god. look at the aztecs, the egyptians, the inuits, native americans, vikings, etc...just about everyone that i can think of throughout history had some form of worship for a higher/more powerful being, whether it be the ground, the elements (rain, snow, wind, etc.), the sun, or a theoretical figure (i.e. gods/goddesses) that can't be seen but is still believed in and worshiped through various rituals and what not...to me that says yes, there is a god by virtue of the fact that religion has been present across the globe for thousands if not millions of years.

to take that one step farther...what if god designed it to where various religions were created only to appeal to whichever culture it best fit? in other words, god rigged the system so everyone that is devout in their faith (as long as it's not like satanic or anything) can have access to heaven. now before you start going off about how jesus is the only way and all that stuff..i'm not sure i can believe that. perhaps jesus is the only way for us because that is the religion that we have been raised with and is a large part of our culture, but i guarantee there are some blokes in the middle of the jungle/forest/desert/wherever in south america/africa/siberia that have absolutely ZERO CHANCE!!!! of being exposed to jesus or christianity. i do not believe that god would design humanity so that if some christians did not do their job to full potential the chaps that never even had a chance of exposure to "the light" or whatever you want to call it would just be screwed over and damned to hell. it's just not fair and it doesn't really make any sense...and i guess you can argue that of course it doesn't make sense to us because it's god...i still say i don't think it works like that. i say this BECAUSE: look at the details in most religions. a code is laid down (as in a series of laws, ten commandments, whatever..) and the "eternal reward" whether it be a bunch of virgins or eternal honey and manna or 1000 years on a beach in the sky somewhere is granted to those who abide by the religious code. these codes generally all consist of the usual "be good to people and don't rip 'em off at all" (murder, adultery, theft, jealousy, revenge...it's all generally frowned upon except revenge to a point...it's still there in christianity, it just says god gets to be the executor of it instead of the one that is wronged). so they all pretty much say BE A GOOD PERSON. therefore...if there are good people that are never exposed to the "one true religion" because they never get a chance...i can't seem them burning in hell.

bottom line..compare and contrast religions. they're all basically the same thing. there is a deity or higher power of sorts and a code of morals that influences the society in which the religion is present..therefore is it possible god made humanity to be able to accept the religion of their culture (as long as it's not like satanic or anything) and still have access to heaven?

**jews are the "chosen people" yet they don't believe in jesus...i'm pretty sure that they are WAY more devoted in their practices of faith than i am, therefore shouldn't THEY be the ones to get into heaven over me???**

next thouht...
mankind is selfish and an individual will always do things to benefit his/herself. now, can it be said that an individual will not do ANYTHING without some kind of personal reward? in other words, is it possible for there to be a truly selfless act?

examples...

someone takes a bullet for someone they care about...could they be thinking subconscientiously that they will remembered in a good light because of that action, thus bringing them an "epic death" that will be long-remembered?

christians witness to nonbelievers because they are called to do it...do they do it to truly help those people or to just further their standing in god's good books?

etc. i can come up with more but i'm getting tired of typing....

ok, well i'll stop there for now..once again i don't necessarily believe these things, i'm just kind of wondering about them as possibilities..i still believe what i've always believed, but i'm just questioning potential tangents that may be there...don't just take any of that as pure fact or bullcrap, because i'm just throwing it out there to think about.

also, just because i know you may jump on me for it..i kind of wrote from a nonbiased viewpoint, like talking about all religions as though i'm not a part of them...that was intentional, but only to put them in equal light for the sake of the thought i was trying to get across...just so ya know

i'm done for now...i hope somebody responds before i go to bed so i dont feel like i wasted half an hour...


**note..i sent this to some friends so sorry for possible strange wording..directly copied and pasted out of another thread.**
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Quote:
bottom line..compare and contrast religions. they're all basically the same thing. there is a deity or higher power of sorts and a code of morals that influences the society in which the religion is present..therefore is it possible god made humanity to be able to accept the religion of their culture (as long as it's not like satanic or anything) and still have access to heaven?
If this were true it would contradict the majority of religious writings in most major religions.

For example, for Christians it's right there in the 10 commandments. You will not have any Gods before the God of the Christian bible. In doing so you do not gain passage to heaven (at least if you're reading the bible literally). The bible very specifically condemns non Christians and non believers...as a matter of fact, belief is almost the only prerequisite to heaven assuming you repent your sins (which is quite clearly absurd.)

So if this were true it would compromise the divinity of the texts. Not that I think any of the holy books are the word of God; they're (impressive, mind you) cultural creations of the time.

This is the basis for one of the more major religious dilemmas. From what is written, not every religion can be true. Either one is right or they're all wrong. If they were universally all wrong, it wouldn't make sense for you to get access to heaven based on incorrect belief. On the contrary it might seem more logical to get brownie points for recognizing this >_> Realistically though, it seems God has a lot of people to condemn for no good reason if what scripture says about belief is really true.

Quote:
mankind is selfish and an individual will always do things to benefit his/herself. now, can it be said that an individual will not do ANYTHING without some kind of personal reward? in other words, is it possible for there to be a truly selfless act?
I would say some people are more selfless than others, but every altruistic act we attempt is driven on some level by selfishness. A good portion of research in social psychology supports this, in particular many acts that appear to be altruistic are driven by the need for negative state relief (we feel better about ourselves as a result of performing the act).
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Old 06-10-2008, 10:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Didn't read Reach's post because I don't feel like reading that much more but here's something I wanted to point out:
Quote:
what if heaven is universal for all religions? if man was made with one of the primary thought processes to be the capacity for religious belief, to me that somewhat proves that there is a god.
Well what if man wasn't made with the primary thought processes to be the capacity for religious belief, and they just grew up to learn that and go with the flow? Maybe not everyone is born and knows about god right away, they grow up and learn about it and just stick with it, therefore that would contradict your part about proveing(sp?) there is a god.
(I don't post in CT a lot, and I just woke up so this might sound like rambling on).
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
If this were true it would contradict the majority of religious writings in most major religions.

For example, for Christians it's right there in the 10 commandments. You will not have any Gods before the God of the Christian bible. In doing so you do not gain passage to heaven (at least if you're reading the bible literally). The bible very specifically condemns non Christians and non believers...as a matter of fact, belief is almost the only prerequisite to heaven assuming you repent your sins (which is quite clearly absurd.)
but the bible isn't the only one with parts in it like that...if you look at the torah, the koran, and the bible they all have prerequisites for their heaven, but they each encourage the people to live lives according to the moral code set down within the text, and all three have a rather large impact on the cultures in which these religions are present. now i know that leaves out a HUGE portion of religious beliefs, especially considering buddhism and hinduism and the massive populations that believe them, but i'm just wondering how the jews throughout the old testament were "god's chosen people" but yet they are now to be eternally damned according to the christian viewpoint because they do not recognize christ as the messiah...

another thing on that note is that where all three (christians, jews, muslims) all stemmed from the same old testament, i find it interesting that they all accuse the others of breaking their religious codes/laws and if they are all wrong then we all burn...


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Originally Posted by Reach View Post
This is the basis for one of the more major religious dilemmas. From what is written, not every religion can be true. Either one is right or they're all wrong. If they were universally all wrong, it wouldn't make sense for you to get access to heaven based on incorrect belief. On the contrary it might seem more logical to get brownie points for recognizing this >_> Realistically though, it seems God has a lot of people to condemn for no good reason if what scripture says about belief is really true.
see that's exactly what confuses me...i like the whole brownie point system lol...but that's why i'm wondering about the whole different religions for different cultures so it makes sense to them all...i'd rather not believe that EVERYBODY is wrong, but if not everyone is wrong, then how do you know what is right? especially when (nearly) everyone is raised to believe that their religion is correct and everyone else is wrong???

i had this thought in the thread as well...just curious whatcha think:

just analyze the statement..."the one true way"...well, maybe it's the best way, but i'm also pretty sure there's got to be some kind of alternative route (not that i want it...i've been called to be a christian because i was raised as a christian, been baptized, confirmed, etc.

could christians be like some kind of "chosen ones" that are the "one true light????" christian does mean "little christ", so perhaps the bible is actually saying be christians to continue my (Jesus) work and my teachings...thus taking up OUR crosses and continuing the work jesus was trying to do.

that's from an obviously christian point-of-view, but i'm wondering if there's anything to that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelrunner26 View Post
food for thought...just some ideas i've thought up being bored and having nothing better to do..i don't necessarily believe these, but i'm still happy to have imput as long as:
1)you don't just say it's stupid. that accomplishes nothing.
2)you don't back it up with a bible verse that can be easily negated with a different bible verse (people used the bible to support slavery. you can't just pick and choose which parts you want to use)
**not to be picky or anything...that just irritated me a good bit with the whole choose/born gay argument**
just realized that nobody here would know what i was referring to...whether or not gays are born or choose to be homosexual was a previous argument in the facebook thread that i referred to. i have a group of friends that just picks random junk to argue about when we're bored...
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelrunner26
what if heaven is universal for all religions? if man was made with one of the primary thought processes to be the capacity for religious belief, to me that somewhat proves that there is a god. look at the aztecs, the egyptians, the inuits, native americans, vikings, etc...just about everyone that i can think of throughout history had some form of worship for a higher/more powerful being, whether it be the ground, the elements (rain, snow, wind, etc.), the sun, or a theoretical figure (i.e. gods/goddesses) that can't be seen but is still believed in and worshiped through various rituals and what not...to me that says yes, there is a god by virtue of the fact that religion has been present across the globe for thousands if not millions of years.
I could instead suggest that humans have the capacity to invent explanations for phenomena that they don't understand yet. The first religions were generally based around crediting a god or gods for all of the processes that we've now come to understand scientific causes for. God caused the sun to rise and set, god caused the rains to start and the rains to stop, god used the lightning to punish people. Religion seems like the natural offshoot of being scared witless by the power of the natural world. If nature is easily able to just wipe me out, it actually seems like a pretty logical construction to apply an anthropomorphic concept to nature that we can try to appease. I don't think you can use the fact that "people all over invented things they thought were in charge of stuff they couldn't understand" to suggest that there -must- be a god simply because a lot of people thought so.

Quote:
but i guarantee there are some blokes in the middle of the jungle/forest/desert/wherever in south america/africa/siberia that have absolutely ZERO CHANCE!!!! of being exposed to jesus or christianity.
Christianity, while still claiming very strongly that they are the only faith through which you can gain access to heaven have a clause for 'righteous unbelievers' that basically says "If you've never been given a chance to see that Christianity is the only true faith, but you lived a sufficiently good life, you can get in anyway" Most other major faiths either have a similar clause or don't insist that you must be a member of their faith to gain access to their good consequences. Buddhists for example will tell you that you don't need to be a Buddhist to reach enlightenment, it just helps set you on the path.

Quote:
**jews are the "chosen people" yet they don't believe in jesus...i'm pretty sure that they are WAY more devoted in their practices of faith than i am, therefore shouldn't THEY be the ones to get into heaven over me???**
You are hardly representative of all christians any more than your example here is somehow representative of all jews. I know many jews and many christians across all spectrums of devoutness. Christians suggest that the jews stopped being the chosen people as soon as they refused to acknowledge Jesus as the son of God. While Christians wait for the second coming, and judgement, Jews generally are still waiting for God to live up to His half of the covanant and send them their King to free them.

Quote:
mankind is selfish and an individual will always do things to benefit his/herself. now, can it be said that an individual will not do ANYTHING without some kind of personal reward? in other words, is it possible for there to be a truly selfless act?
If you define "Gaining my own sense of well-being" as a "benefit" then no, I don't think there can be any such thing as a selfless act, because even if you do something where nobody will see it, nobody will find out about it, because you think it is the right thing or even just a nice thing to do, if you feel good about yourself for doing the right thing with no reward, you've just rewarded yourself.

An additional thing to consider: Napolean once said that all human actions are motivated by fear or greed. Either you want the consequences of your action, or you are afraid of the consequences for not acting. It's a little cynical, but there aren't many counterexamples you can throw at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach
This is the basis for one of the more major religious dilemmas. From what is written, not every religion can be true. Either one is right or they're all wrong.
Or each one is right for the people who follow it. You can resolve the dilemma easily by granting that each one has its own internal ruleset and you are obliged to follow the one that corresponds to your beliefs. Though I mean, it's pretty much just the Judeo-Christian faiths that want to suggest that -only- followers can get into heaven. Most other world religions tend towards "Being part of the faith will make it much easier to follow the rules, but it isn't necessary if you still end up following the rules"
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:24 PM   #6
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Christianity, while still claiming very strongly that they are the only faith through which you can gain access to heaven have a clause for 'righteous unbelievers' that basically says "If you've never been given a chance to see that Christianity is the only true faith, but you lived a sufficiently good life, you can get in anyway" Most other major faiths either have a similar clause or don't insist that you must be a member of their faith to gain access to their good consequences. Buddhists for example will tell you that you don't need to be a Buddhist to reach enlightenment, it just helps set you on the path.
That's what I was thinking, but I have also heard numerous people say "there's no such thing, Jesus is the only way, etc. (basically the various hardcore singleminded religious hulabaloo that everybody spews out to show off but are too afraid to question it)."

Assuming that it's in the Bible, do you know where? Just out of curiosity while I search for myself...

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Or each one is right for the people who follow it. You can resolve the dilemma easily by granting that each one has its own internal ruleset and you are obliged to follow the one that corresponds to your beliefs. Though I mean, it's pretty much just the Judeo-Christian faiths that want to suggest that -only- followers can get into heaven. Most other world religions tend towards "Being part of the faith will make it much easier to follow the rules, but it isn't necessary if you still end up following the rules"
That's what I was trying to get at all along..just not quite so concisely I suppose. My only question to that would be what happens with the religions that do not necessarily follow the -traditional- code. Hinduism for one...I'm still working on figuring out the whole reincarnation thing. I know what it is and how it ties in with their religion, just not if it could be another "path" or whatever you want to call it...
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:32 PM   #7
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Quote:
Assuming that it's in the Bible, do you know where? Just out of curiosity while I search for myself...
The Lumun Gentium is basically the constitution of the Catholic Church which was written during Vatican II. Among other things it contains the passage: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"
Quote:
My only question to that would be what happens with the religions that do not necessarily follow the -traditional- code.
I'd say that it is the output that is the most important, rather than the process. I can live a good and moral life because the rotten tomatoes in my fridge tell me to, so long as I live a good and moral life.
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:06 PM   #8
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That all make sense, but I watch aLOT of the science channel and history channel. And i was wondering, what if humans evolved from aliens (I know that sounds wierd) and they are actually are gods. Ithat pretty much explains why there so many UFO, they could be coming to check up on us and make sure were doing ok. They probly are the one that gave us the technology like computers etc. But there not sharing all thier power, because they can moce at almost ther speed of light. . Anyways, It's not like all those people would go threw that much trouble to fake proof of aliens. And even back a loooooooooong time ago when columbus was sailing to America, he reported seeing flying light, coming out of the ocean and flying away into the sky, numerous times, varying from night to night.

http://ufos.about.com/
http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/Cas...tion=MajorCase
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case263.htm
http://ufos.about.com/od/bestufocrashcases/p/aztec.htm
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:46 PM   #9
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um...that's an interesting theory. I definitely haven't heard it put like that before. Back in Colubus's time they also thought the earth was flat, so I'm kind of doubting that those "mysterious lights" were anything more than shooting stars. The only thing I really don't like about that is that there really isn't any factual proof, but instead conspiracy theories and the random story.

On the other hand I don't want to say it's impossible because the minute you do that you tend to be made the fool...

You didn't happen to just see the new Indiana Jones movie, did you?


Oh, and thanks devonin..doubt I would've thought to search there haha.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Quote:
Or each one is right for the people who follow it. You can resolve the dilemma easily by granting that each one has its own internal ruleset and you are obliged to follow the one that corresponds to your beliefs. Though I mean, it's pretty much just the Judeo-Christian faiths that want to suggest that -only- followers can get into heaven. Most other world religions tend towards "Being part of the faith will make it much easier to follow the rules, but it isn't necessary if you still end up following the rules"
By saying this you compromise the validity of almost all of the holy texts. What you're saying is 'Some religions say X, some religions say Y, based on their internal rules', yet they are (generally) referencing the exact same thing (How your life should be lived in order to reap the benefits in the afterlife) and thus they cannot both be right, or you run into problems.

E.g., how can you have various moral codes that are all acceptable? If you're going to say the rules for getting into heaven are flexible then where do you suggest we draw the line on what is acceptable for access to heaven and what is not? There are ...I think thousands of religions in the world if you start counting all of the minor ones, so if we accumulate all of the various acceptable behaviors then essentially anything will get you into heaven. You can't live a moral life if you can't define the ethical principles you reference. How do you deal with the fact that this would violate what is written in every religious text? Do we simply ignore the fact that these texts are not to be trusted? What is the point of religion then - non belief should be equally valid.

There are numerous other problems, e.g. references to the God(s) themselves is one. They're not all the same. Which God is the real one? If we roll back the scale, a long time ago everyone believed in Gods we today consider ridiculous (such as Zeus). What makes any of the other Gods more valid than Zeus (given you cannot muster evidence to support any of them)?


If you're going to take the stance of all religions being equally valid lifestyles yet invalid within themselves then it invalidates the entire principle of religion. Mind you, I wouldn't mind it if everyone agreed with you, since if people realized this we could stop a significant amount of fighting in the world, as a lot of it arises from creation of in groups and out groups that both, in the case of religion, claim to hold the universal law. However, this isn't the case.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: Food For Thought

Quote:
By saying this you compromise the validity of almost all of the holy texts. What you're saying is 'Some religions say X, some religions say Y, based on their internal rules', yet they are (generally) referencing the exact same thing (How your life should be lived in order to reap the benefits in the afterlife) and thus they cannot both be right, or you run into problems.
Well, what I was getting at was more the suggestion like "God doesn't care what ruleset you create for yourself as long as it is inside certain consistant guidelines" As long as you're about moral living, helping others, showing some compassion, the rest is gravy.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:10 AM   #12
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um...that's an interesting theory. I definitely haven't heard it put like that before. Back in Colubus's time they also thought the earth was flat, so I'm kind of doubting that those "mysterious lights" were anything more than shooting stars. The only thing I really don't like about that is that there really isn't any factual proof, but instead conspiracy theories and the random story.

On the other hand I don't want to say it's impossible because the minute you do that you tend to be made the fool...

You didn't happen to just see the new Indiana Jones movie, did you?


Oh, and thanks devonin..doubt I would've thought to search there haha.
Yeah, thats kinda wrong about the shooting stars thing, he described a red glowing light fying OUT of the water into the sky, and then was gone.
Also I think it was reported in his log, multiple night's.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:24 PM   #13
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Yeah, thats kinda wrong about the shooting stars thing, he described a red glowing light fying OUT of the water into the sky, and then was gone.
Also I think it was reported in his log, multiple night's.
Hmm..perhaps they were red shooting stars?? I can't prove that they were not UFO's anymore than you can prove that they were, but I do know that they also believed the Earth was flat and the first landmass across the Atlantic Ocean was India.

My point was just that it's a really unorthodox theory. Interesting, yes. Likely, I'm inclined to say no but noone really knows for sure.

That being said..this is a religious/philosophical discussion so I'm not one to call nonsense since pretty much anything is fair game.
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