How can we solve our problem with China?

[legoboy792]

We are currently in major debt with China, and we should take some action for this. Problem is how can we do this. My first suggestion would stop putting things we get from china on credit or stop getting things at all. if anyone has any other ideas post your comment now.

[devonin]

As of April 2008, the total U.S. federal debt was approximately $9.5 trillion, about $31,100 per capita (that is, per U.S. resident). Of this amount, debt held by the public was roughly $5.3 trillion. If, in addition, unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, etc. promises are added, this figure rises to a total of $59.1 trillion. In 2007 the public debt was 36.8 percent of GDP ranking 65th in the world. The total debt is currently 66.5% of GNP.

Edit: Hmm. My numbers seem to have been a bit off. 5.3T held by the public, 44% of that (2.3T) is held by foreigners, 66% of the 44% (1.5T) is held by the central banks of other countries, especially China and Japan. Looking a little deeper into some US .gov sites, it seems as though the actual amount of foriegn debt held by China is 486B, still less than is owed to Japan, and only 9% of the total debt owed by the United States.

That's barely more than the US spent this year on defense (439.3B not counting Iraq and Afghanistan which was a HUGE additional expense) Cutting defense expenditure in half for two years (While still funding Iraq and Afghanistan the same amount) would basically erase the debt with China, so I'm not sure this counts as a catastrophic economic crisis.

[legoboy792]

This might be an economical crises if China wants us to pay them now. what would we do then?

[omgitznpv]

For what reason would they want us to pay them now? They can't expect us to pay back all the debt at once, anyways. How would it cause an economical crisis? If we do pay them back immediately, heck, it's possible we mind up borrowing from another country or such.
Or taxes.
Or something.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by legoboy792

This might be an economical crises if China wants us to pay them now. what would we do then?

By the same token that the US has borrowed a lot of money from other countries, they've also lent a lot of money in international aid, and so generally, has every first world country in the world.

Debts get paid back in small parts as countries generate surpluses (When they get a government that isn't say...obsessed with carrying out a ridiculously expensive war, and actually wants to concern themselves with -balanced- budgets and not rampant deficit spending) because if some country were going to go "Ahaha, we'll be jerks and call the debts!" all that would do is make everyone else call debts from everyone else, and they could probably cut a good 50% out of the world's debt just by transferring debts and cancelling things out.

Though in the case, specifically of the United States, especially given the current government, I woudln't be surprised to find that rather than risk bankruptcy and depression the US would at least consider just defaulting on China's loan entirely. Not much they can do about it, really.

[legoboy792]

How could they default China's loan?

[devonin]

China: Hey US, Pay us our money.

US: No

[Zythus]

Go to court and officially state to China that the debt cannot be paid off.

But I'm very much skeptical about China's abrupt demand for all the loaned money to be paid back immediately. I'm not convinced that China would want to ruin or destabilize the friendship with the US, because China do very much require US investment or influence to achieve further development. Also, it is China's period of glory currently, with the Olympics coming up just months away. China wouldn't want another nation to glare at them "officially", especially with the bad publicity they are showered with now.

[legoboy792]

Well say if we decide to help Tawain. Then couldnt China declare that we pay them back?

[Kinspin]

I think we should cut spending on the Iraq war.
I don't see that happening while Bush is in office of if McCain assumes the office in November.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by legoboy792

Well say if we decide to help Tawain. Then couldnt China declare that we pay them back?

Yes they could. They won't, and even if they did, the US could pretty easily get away with just ignoring them.

Besides, the most important point is China's economy is booming right now, they are in no financial trouble whatsoever. As a result, if they tried to call the US's debt, the US would simply point out to the international community that China has no need for this money, and is obviously only trying to cause economic distress to competing economy, which would certainly not go over well internationally, especially coming from China.

[legoboy792]

Okay, so if we did that the US would not have to pay. There would also be no consequences? Say that another country wants them to pay us? Then we would be in the same boat.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by legoboy792

Okay, so if we did that the US would not have to pay. There would also be no consequences? Say that another country wants them to pay us? Then we would be in the same boat.

What can any country, or even any consortium of countries actually -do- to the United States if they suddenly decide they don't like what the US is doing?

If your answer involves invasions or nuclear weapons, then you have no idea how global politics works.

[legoboy792]

Originally Posted by devonin

What can any country, or even any consortium of countries actually -do- to the United States if they suddenly decide they don't like what the US is doing?

If your answer involves invasions or nuclear weapons, then you have no idea how global politics works.

Well im not trying to go to war im saying that couldn't another country ask the US to pay up?

[esupin]

China has bought a huge amount of war bonds, so they've literally funded a large part of the Iraq War and the US's other middle eastern conflicts. I'm not too worried about the national debt because it doesn't work the same way that it does with individuals. Technically, the US can be fine never fully paying back their debts. However, I still think that the US is being irresponsible with its money. Not good.

Also, I'm worried more about relations with Russia than debt with China. We're shoving NATO bases and missile defense systems closer and closer to them, and Bush seems to think we have some sort of right because we "won" the Cold War (which we didn't - when Bush Sr. and Gorbachev agreed to end it, they both agreed that there would be no winner announced). I mean, it's like Russia putting missiles in Cuba, Canada, and Mexico. We'd go nuts in the US.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by legoboy792

Well im not trying to go to war im saying that couldn't another country ask the US to pay up?

You know, if you're going to ignore what other people are saying, we aren't going to get anywhere in a discussion.

Yes, another country could ask. They won't, for reasons I already outlined. Even if they -did- I already made my response to that to: "If the United States refuses to pay back any country that demands their money, what can that other country even do about it?

The US can be entirely economically self-sufficient if it wants to be/has to be, and Canada is -never- going to cut off trade ties with the US no matter what circumstances come up. Between the Canadian Natural Resources and the American Industrial Base, both countries could completely cease dealing with the rest of the world economically and still have everything they needed, so economic sanctions (which are pretty impossible anyway, I'd love to see whose navy volunteers to blockade the entire atlantic and pacific coasts of north america) woudln't do anything.

I'd argue that no country or group of countries could pose any kind of real threat to the American military in America (I've argued that a group of certain countries, if they had a few years to train and work together, could take the US in a striaght up fight on neutral ground, but nobody has both an army and navy capable of putting enough, good enough troops onto the continental United States to do anything to them) so a military response woudln't work either.

So again, I ask you: If some countries, X, demand that the United States repay their loans "Or else" and the United States says "Or else what?" I don't think there is a single response that those countries could make that would actually be an effective threat of consequences.

[legoboy792]

I would agree with you that the US army could easily beat all others on the US soil. what if the country decides to missile us? it would be the Cuban missile crises all over again.

[Zythus]

The thesis of Devonin's post was to show how self sufficent and powerful USA is. How powerful? even the U.N. could not stand up to their power. Hence, it is frankly absurd to suggest that another country would even dare to assault the US. First of all, they face total destruction. Secondly, if US doesn't like a country, chances are that their hatred would induce the minds of other countries to hate them as well.
Since you really can't cope with long and informative posts, heres it simple:

Why another country cannot missile the US:
-US army will destroy them. Period.
-US will get pissed, and if US is pissed, other countries would follow.

Heres an answer to the next possible question of yours:

Why would other countries follow?
Because US is the strongest power and their influence causes other countries to side with them, Against the missiling country.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by legoboy792

I would agree with you that the US army could easily beat all others on the US soil. what if the country decides to missile us? it would be the Cuban missile crises all over again.

You seem to not know anything about the cuban missile crisis.

The number of countries who could successfully attack the United States from their own country with missiles is incredibly small. There is not one country who could strike remotely at the US -and- not be more easily retaliated against by the US.

The Cuban Missile Crisis centered around fears involving the potential for nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union. I think I am not being unreasonable to state even something this authoritative: No national entity will EVER fire a nuclear weapon at another one, ever again.

The obvious consequence of functionally the TOTAL END OF THE WORLD is so glaringly obvious to every world power with nuclear weapons that it will simply NEVER HAPPEN.

The only chance there will ever be a nuclear attack against anybody ever, will be at the hands of a non-governmental terrorist group who either doesn't care about the consequences, actively wants the consequences, or somehow managed to convince themselves that the consequences won't be that dire.

As for non-nuclear missiles, I think it is pretty safe to say that the US has one of the most sophisticated early-warning systems, one of the best surface-air missile systems, and easily the strongest navy and largest if not most well trained (That usually goes to Britain or Canada or Israel) air forces in the world. The American military and industrial base is so spread out over such a large area that any attack against America's response capability will simply fail, and only piss them off and cause them to ramp up the severity of their response.

[legoboy792]

Originally Posted by devonin

You seem to not know anything about the cuban missile crisis.

The number of countries who could successfully attack the United States from their own country with missiles is incredibly small. There is not one country who could strike remotely at the US -and- not be more easily retaliated against by the US.

The Cuban Missile Crisis centered around fears involving the potential for nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union. I think I am not being unreasonable to state even something this authoritative: No national entity will EVER fire a nuclear weapon at another one, ever again.

The obvious consequence of functionally the TOTAL END OF THE WORLD is so glaringly obvious to every world power with nuclear weapons that it will simply NEVER HAPPEN.

The only chance there will ever be a nuclear attack against anybody ever, will be at the hands of a non-governmental terrorist group who either doesn't care about the consequences, actively wants the consequences, or somehow managed to convince themselves that the consequences won't be that dire.

As for non-nuclear missiles, I think it is pretty safe to say that the US has one of the most sophisticated early-warning systems, one of the best surface-air missile systems, and easily the strongest navy and largest if not most well trained (That usually goes to Britain or Canada or Israel) air forces in the world. The American military and industrial base is so spread out over such a large area that any attack against America's response capability will simply fail, and only piss them off and cause them to ramp up the severity of their response.

I have to comment on this. (This source is from a teacher) India fired a missile into the sea to show another country like they are saying HA what now? This also causes alot of other problems with the UN. The main problem is that The US sows not want to take sides because the two country's in this incident were our buddies back in the day. Understand?