Drugs

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by ScylaX

It's kinda out of subject, but I don't see the point of living if it's about escaping from your perceptions that allows you to feel the world, just concentrate on how to be positive and the time will help you. Unless there is actually no way from escaping to your conditions.

My perceptions don't necessarily allow me to feel the world, and being aware of the world and of my problems doesn't necessarily mean being able to navigate the world or solve my problems. There are all kinds of problems I can see but not solve. There are all kinds of pains which blur my perception of reality. Admittedly drugs themselves obfuscate perception in their own capacity, but it's a trade-off, and it isn't always bad.

My body, for example, causes me a significant amount of distress. My life experiences cause a significant amount of distress. Both of these are a part of me, I can't escape them but I can certainly conceal them to an extent or dress them up. There are ways I can do this through my sheer force of will, or which my brain does automatically. My attraction to the furry aesthetic and association with my fursona are examples of this, they allow me to organize my perception of my body (for certain purposes) around a surrogate which takes away some of the discomfort I have. Alcohol and Marijuana have proven to be similarly beneficial, although I couldn't give you an exact explanation of how.

If I were just poor or something then you would be right. Drugs are overwhelmingly associated with the poor, and most of them (those who aren't unprotected minorities condemned by the dominant belief systems of the states they live in) can improve their situation with limited effort. I really don't see an inherent problem with escapism though. There's only so much fighting a person can be expected to do before they start taking measures to lessen the pain of their circumstances rather than making futile efforts to change them.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by kommisar

if you guys are going to base effects on statistics, this thread is done for lmao.


% of people who die from first use of drug
% of people who die from overdose
% of people who develop mental illness from drugs
% of people who use drugs regularly with no physical side effects

etc.


there isn't a "responsible" way to take drugs, but there are obvious dumbshits who go over the top

There is an easy way to statistically rigorize the danger of a drug: The LD50 / AD50 of a given drug. I.e. the ratio of the dosage that kills 50% of subjects to the dosage that is tangibly 'active' for a drug. This is documented in medical literature for most drugs.

Things like heroin are intrinsically more 'dangerous' because the LD50 / AD50 is very low, i.e. the difference between a recreational and fatal dosage is small.

[ScylaX]

@ap Oh, you know, I don't have any biased opinion on reason that makes people take drug as long as they don't get depreciable consequences from it. The post you quoted was an answer to kilroy's post according to the thread's matter and it made me think he took drug to escape reality.

As long as you have reasons that justifies perfectly the fact you consume it, I find it perfectly fine. I know it's not just the kind of thing I'd do to discover myself, and it's more a personnal opinion than something I'd debate on.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

If it grows on the ground, or in the ground, i say go for it. Definitely weed. All that man made garbage is horrible for you.

[ichliebekase]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

It would probably help the cause if it weren't a bunch of stoners shouting LEGALIZE MARIJUANA MANNN!

Good point. Of course the government doesn't want to let all of those people win with their pleas and protests. But pretty soon the stoners saying to legalize it are going to calm down because slowly more and more states are legalizing it. Then the government won't feel as reluctant to legalize it and BOOM legalized marijuana.

I don't mind marijuana as much as I used to when I was younger. I did it for a while but stopped. It does mess with your memory in the long run, that's mainly why I didn't continue using it. I don't care if others do it, just don't do it around me often if you're a complete jerk when you're high. My brother's friend was a complete dick when he got high at my house a week or so ago. He is crowned the biggest jerk while high by his friends >.>

I agree, no chemical stuff, just earthly things. No shrooms though, I've seen a lot of friends get hurt while taking that crap.

My opinion on acid; I hate it. I watched a good friend of mine go from being a straight A student to failing every class and almost not graduating because he was taking acid all the time. Now that high school is over, he's a couch hopper, going from house to house because his parents kicked him out.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by ScylaX

@ap Oh, you know, I don't have any biased opinion on reason that makes people take drug as long as they don't get depreciable consequences from it. The post you quoted was an answer to kilroy's post according to the thread's matter and it made me think she took drug to escape reality.

As long as you have reasons that justifies perfectly the fact you consume it, I find it perfectly fine. I know it's not just the kind of thing I'd do to discover myself, and it's more a personnal opinion than something I'd debate on.

edit

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

I agree, no chemical stuff, just earthly things. No shrooms though, I've seen a lot of friends get hurt while taking that crap.

when i read stuff like this i can feel my heartbeat pulsing in my eyelid

[Reincarnate]

Please don't be Storms, guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw

[ScylaX]

@Kilroy Ah, nevermind. I don't especially like talking about something that isn't related to the thread since I have many things to say on your post but most of them just aren't related to the initial topic of the thread and I wouldn't violate rules.

@ichiliebekase Well I don't think marijuana will end up being massively authorized in the future. Even though you'll eventually face less problem with it than with tobacco, it's just another thing compared to tobacco and alcohool that have been known and legalized since centuries (correct me if I'm wrong)

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by ScylaX

@Kilroy Ah, nevermind. I don't especially like talking about something that isn't related to the thread since I have many things to say on your post but most of them just aren't related to the initial topic of the thread and I wouldn't violate rules.

You accuse me of running away from something and then run away from something when I admit to it. What a fascinating asymmetry. You can always PM me, you know. And I'm sure you could find some way to tie it to the initial discussion anyways, so I can only assume you have other motives at heart.

[ChrisReams]

I drink alcohol on special occasions. Alcohol, to me, is not a problem when you drink responsibly, and don't drink all the time.

Hard drugs such as (Heroine, Meth, Cocaine, etc.) I will never try because I would not be able to stop doing them, and my body would turn to a pile of trash. Im sure youve all seen what somebody looks like when they do heroine for years. Their face starts caving in, like its deflated.

Weed, I smoke regularly. Its gay though how all the anti-drug commercials make weed look ridiculous. Like people trying to fly out of windows with a blanket as a cape, **** yeah right. When I smoke, I'm hungry/happy/sleepy. I'm relaxing and playing a video game, or watching a movie. I don't cause anybody harm. I'm not getting off this couch for a good bit.

[VarleyisDance]

Originally Posted by ChrisReams

I drink alcohol on special occasions. Alcohol, to me, is not a problem when you drink responsibly, and don't drink all the time.

Hard drugs such as (Heroine, Meth, Cocaine, etc.) I will never try because I would not be able to stop doing them, and my body would turn to a pile of trash. Im sure youve all seen what somebody looks like when they do heroine for years. Their face starts caving in, like its deflated.

Weed, I smoke regularly. Its gay though how all the anti-drug commercials make weed look ridiculous. Like people trying to fly out of windows with a blanket as a cape, **** yeah right. When I smoke, I'm hungry/happy/sleepy. I'm relaxing and playing a video game, or watching a movie. I don't cause anybody harm. I'm not getting off this couch for a good bit.

amen

[Yieldsign]

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

It all comes down to how responsible you are when using a particular substance. However, I think sometimes it's hard to say something like "responsible heroin user" and have it be accurate in most cases. Some substances are simply harder on your system than others and screw with things in various ways. Your best bet is to simply educate yourself and understand the risks before you go do something incredibly stupid.

I agree, which is why I don't want some substances legalized. Drugs that build tolerance extremely quickly, have bad withdrawal, and a low LD50 (this combination is rather important; rapid tolerance doesn't mean much if the LD50 is unrealistically high; you can keep taking more LSD to achieve the same high but you're not going to kill yourself unless you're like that idiot who took 333mg, which is 333,000 times the average dose) should be illegal. And while I don't think cocaine is that physically addictive (don't get me wrong, tolerance builds and there is some withdrawal), I do think it should be illegal because of the LD50, although I think it's ridiculous that responsible users are stigmatized for it.

Originally Posted by jenovasephiroth

Opiates (cocaine, heroin, oxy, etc) happens to provide a massive rush

Cocaine isn't an opiate, it's a CNS stimulant that affects the 5-HT3 and 5-HT2 receptors; as far as I know, it doesn't affect any of the mu receptors associated with opioid drugs (by the way, the term you're probably looking for is opioid, not opiate; opioids are any drugs that affect the opioid receptors, and opiates are drugs that derive from opium).

Originally Posted by jenovasephiroth

How you feel going into it can make or break your experience, and a horrible enough bad trip can potentially put your mind into a state that it can't return from

I'm not saying this can't happen, but as a matter of principle it kind of annoys me that people make this argument. The great majority of people who have bad trips do not "go crazy" or "stay there." This is really a huge exaggeration that has been gradually disseminated from the 60s LSD days. Again, I'm not saying it never happens, but it is a very rare occurrence, and when it does happen, it's largely psychosomatic; these are chemicals with exact (albeit complicated) processes, and they don't remain in your body forever.

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

Good point. Of course the government doesn't want to let all of those people win with their pleas and protests. But pretty soon the stoners saying to legalize it are going to calm down because slowly more and more states are legalizing it. Then the government won't feel as reluctant to legalize it and BOOM legalized marijuana.

I highly doubt some protesters are the cause of the government's unreasonable stance on marijuana. There are more realistic and complicated factors behind this; years of stigmatization catalyzed by William Hearst's smear campaign against hemp and uneducated people, corporate lean, etc.

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

I don't mind marijuana as much as I used to when I was younger. I did it for a while but stopped. It does mess with your memory in the long run, that's mainly why I didn't continue using it. I don't care if others do it, just don't do it around me often if you're a complete jerk when you're high. My brother's friend was a complete dick when he got high at my house a week or so ago. He is crowned the biggest jerk while high by his friends >.>

Long term memory damage is more prominent if the drug is smoked excessively, and during neural development (primarily adolescence). Neither of which most people who smoke marijuana do. Many people are very "casual" smokers and I think you'd find that to hold true if it was legalized.

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

I agree, no chemical stuff, just earthly things. No shrooms though, I've seen a lot of friends get hurt while taking that crap.

This "natural vs. synthetic" dichotomy is false and very stupid (sorry, no offense). Both natural and synthetic chemicals are still chemicals; and there are many natural chems that are very neurotoxic. Atropine, the main alkaloids in the datura, brugsmania, and belladonna plants, cause extremely intense delusions and hugely toxic side effects in those who use it, and due to the variability in alkaloid content per plant, kill many people. Most natural entheogens have evolved the psychoactive chemicals they contain as defense mechanisms (think mescaline cacti, which have mescaline alkaloids near the outer layer of flesh to deter animals from consuming them), while synthetic chemicals are specifically designed to be taken as recreational drugs. Ironically, people who adhere to this naturalistic fallacy don't realize that most natural drugs were designed to prevent people from eating them, and most synthetic drugs were designed to be consumed. That isn't to say that some synthetic drugs aren't harmful, because many certainly are, but many natural drugs are also harmful.

By the way, shrooms have very low toxicity and surveys show that the great majority of people who have ingested them have ranked them within the most significant experiences in their lives. I don't know what you're talking about, but your (most likely exaggerated) anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless. And this is coming from a drug user that really does not enjoy mushrooms.

Originally Posted by ichliebekase

My opinion on acid; I hate it. I watched a good friend of mine go from being a straight A student to failing every class and almost not graduating because he was taking acid all the time. Now that high school is over, he's a couch hopper, going from house to house because his parents kicked him out.

Your opinion is, again, predicated on nothing but a single and somewhat irrelevant anecdote. I highly doubt acid was the primary contributing factor to your friend's shit life; he probably had a number of emergent factors cause this. If you are unstable and prone to bad behavior, irresponsible use of psychedelics is going to most likely exacerbate those traits, but that in no way means acid was the cause of your friend's downfall. Stop incorrectly conflating causes. I doubt the legitimacy of this anecdote, as well, as it demonstrates a pretty poor understanding of the pharmacology of LSD. You can't take acid "all the time," because it builds tolerance rapidly; it is actually unrealistic to take it more than once every 3-5 days and get effects. And, LSD is not physically addictive and if your friend did become addicted to it, it's no more unreasonable to assume he could have developed an eating disorder or computer addiction; any activity can be psychologically addictive. However, psychology is variable and we don't ban or judge substances based on that because it's an arbitrary decision calculus. Physical addiction, on the other hand, is concrete and reasonable way to determine the legal status of drugs, in combination with other factors.

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by who_cares973

I can't tell if you're being serious with that post or not. Death is a very serious side effect like with any drug legal or not that's what overdosing does.

Overdosing on water can kill you. I'm just saying that taking a single pill of a legal drug vs. taking a single pill of an illegal drug. If we're on the topic of overdosing, you're dead either way. I'd go ahead and say any legal drug that might result in death is a. sufficiently informed, b. had law suits against it.

Comparing dying from having some bad cocaine to dying from taking 8 tylenol is illogical.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by ScylaX

Lol what the ****.
Good drugs = good / Bad drugs = Bad ? Just were did you brought that from ? That's some frightening conclusion right there.

If cigarette was innoxious, it wouldn't kill that much people every year. Same thing for alcohol. Just compare marijuana (illegal) to tabacco (legal) with a serious method and you'll realize the first one is almost inoffensive compared to the second one.

Um, what?

You're comparing bad drugs to bad drugs, I didn't say legal drugs are good and illegal drugs are bad. I said good drugs are good and bad drugs are bad. Tobacco and cigarettes are by no stretch of the imagination a 'good drug, legal or not...

[JenovaSephiroth]

Originally Posted by Yieldsign

I'm not saying this can't happen, but as a matter of principle it kind of annoys me that people make this argument. The great majority of people who have bad trips do not "go crazy" or "stay there." This is really a huge exaggeration that has been gradually disseminated from the 60s LSD days. Again, I'm not saying it never happens, but it is a very rare occurrence, and when it does happen, it's largely psychosomatic; these are chemicals with exact (albeit complicated) processes, and they don't remain in your body forever.

I'm not implying that anything physically stays in your system, and I agree with what you're saying. What I'm pointing out is that bad trips can be traumatic, and as such, it can be difficult to let go for some. It's just one of the risks that one takes when tripping, through the likelihood of such a situation is fairly low.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by Yieldsign

Cocaine isn't an opiate, it's a CNS stimulant that affects the 5-HT3 and 5-HT2 receptors; as far as I know, it doesn't affect any of the mu receptors associated with opioid drugs (by the way, the term you're probably looking for is opioid, not opiate; opioids are any drugs that affect the opioid receptors, and opiates are drugs that derive from opium).

Probably overly pedantic, but opiates would be the best bet here. Pretty much anything down the fentanyl chains and most other μ-opioids that we use medicinally and recreationally today can be derived from opium. If you use the blanket term opioid though, you're including κ-opioids like salvia which are about as far away from something like oxycontin as you can get.

Heh, salvia. Now there's a fun one to debate as to whether it should be legal or not.

Originally Posted by Yieldsign

I'm not saying this can't happen, but as a matter of principle it kind of annoys me that people make this argument. The great majority of people who have bad trips do not "go crazy" or "stay there." This is really a huge exaggeration that has been gradually disseminated from the 60s LSD days. Again, I'm not saying it never happens, but it is a very rare occurrence, and when it does happen, it's largely psychosomatic; these are chemicals with exact (albeit complicated) processes, and they don't remain in your body forever.

I've done LSD from the 50 μg up to 1mg range and I'm going to have to disagree here. While LSD leaves your system in about 2 hours it obviously catalyzes something that lasts much longer. Anecdotally, I feel like acid puts my brain into a state of hyper-plasticity and I have the ability, for better or worse, to embed several years worth of repetitions of learning into my head over the course of 24hrs.

[XXXsmittyXXX]

Originally Posted by aperson

Correct kind sir

[Yieldsign]

Originally Posted by JenovaSephiroth

I'm not implying that anything physically stays in your system, and I agree with what you're saying. What I'm pointing out is that bad trips can be traumatic, and as such, it can be difficult to let go for some. It's just one of the risks that one takes when tripping, through the likelihood of such a situation is fairly low.

Alright, reasonable enough. I just don't want to provide more fuel for the ridiculous anti drug peeps.

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Overdosing on water can kill you. I'm just saying that taking a single pill of a legal drug vs. taking a single pill of an illegal drug. If we're on the topic of overdosing, you're dead either way. I'd go ahead and say any legal drug that might result in death is a. sufficiently informed, b. had law suits against it.

Comparing dying from having some bad cocaine to dying from taking 8 tylenol is illogical.

EDIT:



Um, what?

You're comparing bad drugs to bad drugs, I didn't say legal drugs are good and illegal drugs are bad. I said good drugs are good and bad drugs are bad. Tobacco and cigarettes are by no stretch of the imagination a 'good drug, legal or not...

Actually, as I remember it you said "the only bad thing that will happen from taking legal drugs are some stupid side effects." If that's not what you meant, fine, but articulate yourself more clearly.

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

If we're on the topic of overdosing, you're dead either way. I'd go ahead and say any legal drug that might result in death is a. sufficiently informed, b. had law suits against it.

Comparing dying from having some bad cocaine to dying from taking 8 tylenol is illogical.

I'd go ahead and say that if illegal drugs were legalized, then death as a result would be a. sufficiently informed, b. have law suits against it. Lmfao nice argument.

And yeah, comparing dying from having some "bad" cocaine (what the hell does this even mean? "Bad" cocaine really means "weak" cocaine that's cut with impurities, because that's the most economically feasible scenario; in which case, it's going to be less neurotoxic) to dying from tylenol is stupid. However, tylenol isn't the only legal drug, and it is certainly not stupid to compare dying from cocaine to dying from oxycodone or alcohol. Of course, you refuse to acknowledge this point that several people have made.

[aperson]

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

Correct kind sir

That is Amanita Phalloides, also known as the Death Cap mushroom. Eating that is a guaranteed way to liver failure and a painful death. Your argument that natural things are okay and chemical things are not is absolutely ludicrous and me and Yieldsign have both posted why in this thread.

[Yieldsign]

Originally Posted by aperson

Probably overly pedantic, but opiates would be the best bet here. Pretty much anything down the fentanyl chains and most other μ-opioids that we use medicinally and recreationally today can be derived from opium. If you use the blanket term opioid though, you're including κ-opioids like salvia which are about as far away from something like oxycontin as you can get.

Heh, salvia. Now there's a fun one to debate as to whether it should be legal or not.

Yeah, good point, I really wanted to use the term opioid so we could include drugs like Kratom, which is certainly not an opiate but mirrors the effects of one very closely. It's also disgusting and I regret ever doing it, haha.

And yeah, salvia... I think it should be legal, but I don't really think any sane person should enjoy it. What a bizarre drug.

Originally Posted by aperson

I've done LSD from the 50 μg up to 1mg range and I'm going to have to disagree here. While LSD leaves your system in about 2 hours it obviously catalyzes something that lasts much longer. Anecdotally, I feel like acid puts my brain into a state of hyper-plasticity and I have the ability, for better or worse, to embed several years worth of repetitions of learning into my head over the course of 24hrs.

I suppose what I meant to point out was not that the drug is completely expelled from your system in a short amount of time (although the half life is about 2 hours iirc, of course there is going to be residual physical and mental stimulation, among other effects), but rather that taking it every day is simply unrealistic, because your body does build rapid tolerance to it - that's a pharmacological fact. Most people simply don't drop acid every day, because the amount you'd have to take to keep up the primary effects is unrealistically expensive, and the physical addiction (or rather, lack thereof) is not compelling enough to drive people to spend exorbitant amounts of money buying an increasing number of tabs every day.