9th (and 10th?) Official Tournament -- D7 (and others?) Format Change?

[XelNya]

I love the idea Aj. It gives everyone a really fair chance to not let one round spell their end. As a user who's bane of existence is usually round 2, it'd be a very welcomed concept.

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

Originally Posted by Viisbyxa

That would punish skillboosts and reward people who kept a very similar (and relatively high) level of skill throughout the tournament. I'd think that usually skillboosts are more indicative of working hard at winning (not in all cases, but in general), and it would be really disappointing to work hard at it and then lose after the last round because you weren't able to do as well in early rounds.

I agree that people who have relatively high scores from the start would be at an advantage. However, people who receive a lower score than others in the last round when the song doesn't favor their skillset would also be at a disadvantage, and it would not gauge their overall skill. In my opinion, someone who receives overall higher scores throughout the tournament should win over someone who receives a higher score for the last round or two because the former case more accurately depicts his or her overall skill. Even when someone tries harder and skillboosts more than someone who received an overall higher score without trying as much, I would still believe that the person who received an overall higher score has more of an ability to do well on songs in general, and that he or she should rank higher in the division.

I hope I don't sound rude or mean. This is my opinion, and it is not meant to persuade you to change your own opinion.

[EzExZeRo7497]

@Poison-: I understand that, but despite the fact that lower-end players are given the chance to participate in the tourney a little more, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will actually try.

The reason why I don't think it'll help low D7 (or lower-end players of a division in general if this is going to cater towards all divisions) is that no matter if they were given the opportunity to participate for 4 more rounds, chances are that they won't be able to catch up to the top 8 anyway, which is mainly mid to high D7.

The gap between low D7 (Zephei, kjwkjw) and mid D7 (Dynamo, One Winged Angel) is ridiculously large. The only thing that this new format change will benefit to are players who are weak in easier files (PA-wise) and much stronger in harder files. Almost none of the players in D7 are like that, with the exception of myself, since they won't be eliminated in the earlier rounds and will make a comeback at the harder files.

Seeing that no one in D7 is like that, nothing much will really change. If you're lacking behind by 1-2 goods per round, consider yourself eliminated unless you somehow got a file that's right up your alley at Round 5 or some round which most players will struggle in. But by the time the file comes, you wouldn't be motivated enough because there would be almost no chance to make a comeback.

I personally would want to see a complete non-elimination tourney instead, since there will be more room for comebacks which I personally find a lot more exciting. There won't be any occasion where someone would go from 16th place to 1st place in 2 rounds, so you can't necessarily "fluke" your way to first place. However, if you're able to find your stride and beat most players in the last 2 rounds, you deserve that position. I personally value great accuracy on higher-end files (96+) more than perfect accuracy on files that are 85-88.

[reuben_tate]

Perhaps there could be a better way to implement both nicely?

One possible way perhaps would be to run through the tournament in the usual elimination style. However, still keep track of the cumulative scores along the way, even for the players that were already eliminated. This could easily be implemented with two dashboards with the default one being elimination. At the end of the tourney, of course we would distribute prizes like we would a elimination tourney. However, after those prizes are distributed, we take a look at the cumulative-scoring dashboard. Let us say that Player X didn't make top 16 in the elimination-dashboard. However we notice he did make top 16 in the cumulative-dashboard. We would then give Player X a complimentary prize of either lesser or equal value than the prize he would have received if he made top 16 in the elimination-dashboard. Any thoughts?

[L.B.D.D]

Originally Posted by EzExZeRo7497

I personally would want to see a complete non-elimination tourney instead, since there will be more room for comebacks which I personally find a lot more exciting. There won't be any occasion where someone would go from 16th place to 1st place in 2 rounds, so you can't necessarily "fluke" your way to first place. However, if you're able to find your stride and beat most players in the last 2 rounds, you deserve that position. I personally value great accuracy on higher-end files (96+) more than perfect accuracy on files that are 85-88.

exactly this

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

Originally Posted by reuben_tate

Perhaps there could be a better way to implement both nicely?

One possible way perhaps would be to run through the tournament in the usual elimination style. However, still keep track of the cumulative scores along the way, even for the players that were already eliminated. This could easily be implemented with two dashboards with the default one being elimination. At the end of the tourney, of course we would distribute prizes like we would a elimination tourney. However, after those prizes are distributed, we take a look at the cumulative-scoring dashboard. Let us say that Player X didn't make top 16 in the elimination-dashboard. However we notice he did make top 16 in the cumulative-dashboard. We would then give Player X a complimentary prize of either lesser or equal value than the prize he would have received if he made top 16 in the elimination-dashboard. Any thoughts?

I like this idea a lot. ^.^

[Salitz]

Originally Posted by drizzleRomanceGirl

I like this idea a lot. ^.^

Seconded. Keeps everyone in the game for the full tourney and doesn't disrupt the "standard" tournament set-up... I like that.

[j-rodd123]

still think the regular elimination way is def more exciting. i mean this seems pretty dull for the first couple rounds and only would be exciting once it gets to elimination or if some crazy comeback happens, which again probably isnt as exciting as 3 people down to the wire constantly grinding and supping each other on a single song.

[j-rodd123]

also I just saw Reuben's suggestion and like that idea if it is not too much of a hassle to implement

[PriestREA]

Originally Posted by HalfStep

Agreed with rob's point, it makes it absolutely discouraging to try to skillboost from the bottom of a division, since even if you manage to improve your skill enough, your early round scores will get you eliminated.

It also gives a disadvantage to players that can't AAA easy stuff but still get decent enough scores to survive a cutoff in early rounds.

This was how I felt during the last official. My first round/second round scores weren't too far off the elimination cutoff. I couldn't AAA Retro City or Oops, but I was able to blackflag rounds 3 and 4. I really think cumulative scoring gives people the best chance to participate in the tournament and compete too.

[xXOpkillerXx]

A weakness in 1 later round would make a perfect start (like first 4/5 rounds AAA) totally meaningless.

[HalfStep]

That's the problem though, a predictable tournament with no possible upsets is boring to watch, even if it produces "fair" results. (FFR tournaments are already like that, and this would make it worse imo)

[xXOpkillerXx]

Tbh I feel like it's just gonna be "Oh whatever I dont care so much about first rounds because I'm only good at hard files so I'll kill their scores on the last 2 rounds". If you can't (by you I mean anybody) be consistent enough to survive the first few rounds you should not be permitted to access the later ones. Sorry but being very fast is a skill, yes, but being able to stay consistent on the most patterns is one too.

EDIT: Reuben's idea seems to be the best.

[HalfStep]

So we agree? I think elim is way better than cumul, and ben's idea is a fair middle ground I guess.

[mr_candy]

Originally Posted by L.B.D.D

exactly this

+1

[emulord]

I think that elimination makes it so you're not "in the tournament, but can't ever win"
So I like elimination better. Perhaps D7 should do something else, but D7 is weird anyway.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx

Tbh I feel like it's just gonna be "Oh whatever I dont care so much about first rounds because I'm only good at hard files so I'll kill their scores on the last 2 rounds". If you can't (by you I mean anybody) be consistent enough to survive the first few rounds you should not be permitted to access the later ones. Sorry but being very fast is a skill, yes, but being able to stay consistent on the most patterns is one too.

EDIT: Reuben's idea seems to be the best.

Originally Posted by HalfStep

So we agree? I think elim is way better than cumul, and ben's idea is a fair middle ground I guess.

Not quite -- it seems like he's saying that a player shouldn't be allowed to simply scrape around the earlier rounds by being lazy since there's more people to fall back on. Players that are lazy in the first four rounds would suffer due to not maximizing their scores before the cut.

It's safe to say that I am no longer considering this concept for non-D7 divisions. I still feel horrible about certain D7 players not being able to experience the competition for a few rounds. Cumulative scoring alleviates this issue, technically. Maybe I should just stick with that after all.

This concept was worth a shot at the least, and we got some pretty good discussion out of it in the process.

[andy-o24]

Just keep the cumulative scoring that you had for D7 last official for this one. If you want to try this for all divisions, do it in a user-run tournament and document the successes/failures. Use that data to determine if it would work for a full official and perhaps next time use it.

-o24

[xXOpkillerXx]

No what I mean is that a player with strengths on harder files shouldnt be granted a place in the later rounds if he can't proove he can do the lower end files better than the other players. I absolutely dont see why you'd do so because the eliminated players are totally able to play the files even though they're not in the tourney anymore and compare their score to the ones who are still competing. And what if they get better scores than the competitors while they're eliminated you might ask ? Well to me it's just better luck next time, you didnt manage to survive the round you were eliminated on. It's an official tournament, not a custom user tourney with second chances and all that. ;/

[drizzleRomanceGirl]

In case you're still taking suggestions, I thought of a new idea. ^.^ How about if all seven divisions have an elimination tournament, but the people who are eliminated can still participate in their division in the "loser's bracket"? The loser's bracket would be cumulative and would give people who were eliminated a chance to still participate in the tournament and win credit prizes, but they wouldn't be able to affect the elimination bracket. What does everyone think of this idea?