Old 07-10-2013, 04:26 PM   #2101
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

I already posted about this in the R^3 thread weeks ago but yeah, completely for this. Not allowing them does nothing more than discourage people from playing, while allowing them makes the game more enjoyable for players.

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Okay I just dicked around a bit in R3 and you're right...I'm confused as to how this affects judgment though (the game can't possibly be running in 30fps at this point anymore even if I select that as my framerate option, so I don't know exactly where the perfect window starts and ends...arc?)

Anyways I just isolated the Skeletor wall at 1.1/1.2 and a few other rolly things (DeVouR etc.) I thought should theoretically be much easier to bs through given the higher roll speed, and yeah, I'm finding it much easier to AAA.

Obviously this problem doesn't exist for the vast majority of songs, but it's still there.
Rates force the game into fps mode, so it uses the fps timing windows. You might want to compare 1.1 and 1.2 at 30fps with 1.0 at 31fps to force fps mode on. It certainly can make slow rolls easier to jumptrill since it compresses them.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:26 PM   #2102
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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If, for example, mirror scores were to record to the same scoreboard as nonmirror, I'm saying that now, after testing this, there will be players that can AAA something like Lolo on mirror but will be unable to do the same on nonmirror. Why should these scores be reflected in the same scoreboard for this file as nonmirror scores if the player is unable to achieve the same score without mirror?

If some of you guys don't see the potential problem there, then I don't know what else to say lol
i dunno, maybe i'm really overthinking this, but I really don't see your argument as valid (i'm seriously really sorry if like, idk. I just...irdfk)
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #2103
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

well mirror's a diff issue because people are right or left hand dominant so mirror/nonmirror counting makes sense lol
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:32 PM   #2104
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

If I'm in the minority thinking that what I'm posting about is actually a problem, then that's fine. I understand that most players want rates and I'm not against that. I'd prefer that most players see the issue I'm addressing and don't view it as a big deal as opposed to glossing over it only because this is a potential speedbump to getting rates added.

Also yes this would certainly make Synth Legacy crap easier to AAA, like TSR mentioned. Not just FGO level crap.

And yeah I don't see rates and mirror being comparable at all, I'd prefer to see more players weigh in on the issue and see what they have to say.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:36 PM   #2105
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

Honestly, as long as it doesn't harm the integrity of high level play and leaderboards, it should be allowed. If it allows most players to have more fun with the game, and also brings more players in, I don't really see why you would be against it.

(It's like if Smash Melee was released without items and someone was like, hey we have this cool new idea that makes it way more fun for all the casuals, and you can turn it off for competitive play. Most people would be like yeah that's fine.)
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:37 PM   #2106
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

i actually think it's even better that older songs that are otherwise NEVER touched because of their terrible file quality will be easier to AAA

because well, ffr isn't ffr when you're only playing a selection of 200 songs fit to your skill level

incentive to play easier songs on higher rates (even if they are easier to AAA because of rates) will give ffr more replayability





honestly when's the last time you played secret zombie room or dj kankaoh stuff for fun
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:39 PM   #2107
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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If I'm in the minority thinking that what I'm posting about is actually a problem, then that's fine. I understand that most players want rates and I'm not against that. I'd prefer that most players see the issue I'm addressing and don't view it as a big deal as opposed to glossing over it only because this is a potential speedbump to getting rates added.

Also yes this would certainly make Synth Legacy crap easier to AAA, like TSR mentioned. Not just FGO level crap.

And yeah I don't see rates and mirror being comparable at all, I'd prefer to see more players weigh in on the issue and see what they have to say.
Not sure about others but this is pretty much how I feel. The pros outweigh the cons and if someone can AAA these songs on higher rates, more power to them, go take that #1 spot in the leaderboards - they deserve it. It's also an even playing field, if there is a song on 1.1 that's actually easier than on 1.0 then everyone can just go play it on 1.1.

And yes, it's probably a good thing if it lets people blow through the pathetic legacy stuff. It's all about making the game more fun.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:53 PM   #2108
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

The pros certainly outweigh the cons, I just didn't like this one con (imo) very much lol

Will definitely need some staff discussion from the other game managers and some admins (half are like dead or something though so idk), but I'm fine with the addition. Although I can't really see why anyone would say no at this point, I don't think there are other issues as long as it's coded well and people don't take advantage of some obscure way to get songs to record on lower rates lol. Curious to see how rates will be reflected in the replay imager, though.

And yeah, in retrospect, blazing past the legacy songs....might be a good thing lol
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:57 PM   #2109
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

Rates work fine in the replay imager, there's a few in the thread.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:00 PM   #2110
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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The pros certainly outweigh the cons, I just didn't like this one con (imo) very much lol

Will definitely need some staff discussion from the other game managers and some admins (half are like dead or something though so idk), but I'm fine with the addition. Although I can't really see why anyone would say no at this point, I don't think there are other issues as long as it's coded well and people don't take advantage of some obscure way to get songs to record on lower rates lol. Curious to see how rates will be reflected in the replay imager, though.

And yeah, in retrospect, blazing past the legacy songs....might be a good thing lol
Yeah, I do like the idea of limiting it to multiples of 0.1 just in case. I wouldn't actually mind if completely arbitrary rates were allowed, framers will be framers however you manipulate them, but it seems like only allowing 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. would work out well. The interface needs to become a slider anyway. As for the imager, I already have an updated version that supports rates because people were asking for them.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:27 PM   #2111
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

i didnt even know you could do random numbers like 1.0592 lol

but idk anybody here who would actually take the time to figure out stuff like that just to get a better score on a song..
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:51 PM   #2112
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

for a tournament, you'd be surprised
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:55 PM   #2113
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

i would assume tournament songs would be pressured to undergo framer-fixing anyways but i guess it makes sense

admins pls talk w/ each other and make this happen tho, maybe increments on 0.1 or 0.05 (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.35 etc)
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:51 PM   #2114
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

I think I'm against having ratemods record. It'll save time for people playing the easy files, but is that really a good thing? Many older users such as myself actually had to play through all those files to AAA them, and being able to play on a higher rate would make that work pointless. Same argument for not recoloring / removing backgrounds from the old legacy files. It does also hurt the integrity of the high score boards, since they're not really judging the same chart anymore - it's much of a bigger change than mirror.

But if we do allow ratemods to record, I would strongly argue we need...
- to only allow rates that are a multiple of some increment, as people have suggested
- to have a minimum rate of 1.2 or so (so the rate must be either 1.0, or at least the minimum)
- to use frame based timing, NOT millisecond timing (in fact, it shouldn't even be allowed on 1.0 IMO)
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:06 PM   #2115
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

Millisecond timing in charts still doesn't exist on R^3 yet -- it does exist in offsetting for the purpose of machines that occasionally have issues with offsets that "fall in between frames", but the placement of frames themselves do not scale appropriately to proper frames (for example: a 0-framer that happens for a note that is > ~16.6 ms doesn't change in spacing at 60 FPS, despite having enough precision for something like that).

I am in agreement with having rate mods not record, for precisely the same reasons you have (and OWA had); I said pretty much the same things in this thread a bit earlier. It does make the game easier for those who lack the patience and control on very slow files (I mean, come on -- who wouldn't want to rate mod easy files if it guarantees half of the time spent?). However, there comes a point where it might be worthwhile to put aside the personal dislikes about being forced to do something a certain way when it's beneficial for the game as a whole (referring to recoloring of Legacy files). I, along with a lot of the forum community that is well ranked, has dealt with the Legacy files for a long time. I personally do not feel like newer users should have to deal with that as well. Besides, with that current reasoning, frame fixes would technically be something that some players might not benefit from (and there is an active movement to get that to happen as well).

It sucks, but I think that 10 year old charts that are far below the standard of acceptable quality now really should be re-colored (or discarded altogether).

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Old 07-10-2013, 09:49 PM   #2116
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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I think I'm against having ratemods record. It'll save time for people playing the easy files, but is that really a good thing? Many older users such as myself actually had to play through all those files to AAA them, and being able to play on a higher rate would make that work pointless.
I've said this in the R^3 thread, but I will say this here as well. Monotony and boredom should not be factors considered to be skillful, or necessary to keep around FFR. Just because you had to go through hell and back to AAA countless songs severely below your skill level, doesn't mean that we should impose this on newer players of this game, or on those who are interested in tackling their average ranks. I personally am one of the few who actually did bother to go through all of that tedium, and needless to say, it didn't feel like I really accomplished anything special (or really had much fun along the way).

Giving people the chance to challenge themselves, or to make playing through FFR in it's entirety more entertaining, seems like a very positive thing to add to the game. As it stands now, adding rates (as others have said) seems like it would severely boost replayability of the entire FFR song roster. It would also highly motivate people to try and play all of those files that seemed dull, or far below their skill level, since they could attack longer/easier files at speeds which would be far more entertaining to the player.

As for frame placement of notes on rated files being an issue, I am unsure of how large of a problem that would be. Perhaps we should all play a variety of songs on higher rates and see how our scores differ on varying patterns.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:22 AM   #2117
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

Sorry if this is unrelated to the recent posts but I got an idea. It'd be nice if there were some way to listen to the songs at different rates without actually having to play them. It would be cool to have it added to game level stats, but if that's too hard, another thing that would be cool would be an option to play with fail off. It would probably have to make scores not record but if you're using a rate mod anyway there'd be no additional drawback.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:21 AM   #2118
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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Many older users such as myself actually had to play through all those files to AAA them, and being able to play on a higher rate would make that work pointless.
But that's the point, it *is* pointless to go through and AAA a bunch of terrible files. It's the worst form of grinding that no one should need to do - this is a game, players should be having fun. The files need to be removed, fixed, or otherwise hidden regardless of whether they can be on rates but that's a different discussion.

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to have a minimum rate of 1.2 or so (so the rate must be either 1.0, or at least the minimum)
Hm, I have to disagree with this. I assume you're putting it forward as a solution to the roll issue? I dislike it because requiring that minimum seems to make the change geared toward playing easier songs, but not allow people to play songs that normally challenge them on 1.0 a little harder, which is quite a fun thing to do.

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Sorry if this is unrelated to the recent posts but I got an idea. It'd be nice if there were some way to listen to the songs at different rates without actually having to play them. It would be cool to have it added to game level stats, but if that's too hard, another thing that would be cool would be an option to play with fail off. It would probably have to make scores not record but if you're using a rate mod anyway there'd be no additional drawback.
I kind of want to get rid of isolations and just kind of merge them into a practice mode with no-fail that lets you play different parts of a song. Many other things take priority though, so it won't happen for a while. Not sure if you're looking to watch or just listen though, why would you want to listen to a song on rates >.>
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Old 07-11-2013, 02:30 AM   #2119
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

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Just because you had to go through hell and back to AAA countless songs severely below your skill level, doesn't mean that we should impose this on newer players of this game, or on those who are interested in tackling their average ranks.
I see no reason why going back and AAA'ing easier songs should be imposed on them at all. If you claim that boredom and monotony should not be factors, then it seems like the easiest solution to that is to simply not impose that people play songs below their skill level to up their rankings. Saying that we should let them play rates to quell their boredom doesn't seem to be cracking at the key issue.

If you want to play a song and get an AAA on the song, you have to sit there, play the song, and get an AAA on it. It's as simple as that. It would be nice to have multiple scoreboards for different rates, but I would rather not mix apples and oranges.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:50 AM   #2120
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Default Re: FFR Suggestions

I think it'd be nice to be able to play slow songs on faster rates and have it still count. It's making the song harder, and IMO, as long as you're good enough to earn an AAA on a song, you might as well get it. It'd still take plenty long to go AAA all the easy songs, especially with how many more songs keep getting added. New people will continue to find themselves deeper and deeper in the hole of easy songs needed to AAA to catch up. I'm too lazy to AAA most of the easy songs as it is. Getting stuff like 50% of FCs is also very annoying and pointless to most players and mostly a test of how long you can go without getting too bored. I just worry that a lot of these are getting to be really uninviting to newbies since they'll soon see like 2000 songs and there are 3 options:
1. quit
2. go through the ridiculously long struggle to catch up
3. just screw level ranks and have fun with the game

And a lot of people that want either 1 or 2 will end up leaving since they don't want to invest nearly the time. Come on, this should be a game of skill, not who can stand to torture themselves for the longest.
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