More Challenge Tokens? (Poll) / Token Rehaul Discussion

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Token Whore will probably stay where it is, but nothing is final right now.

Can I ask why?

Because if you're gonna change here we go, which is admittedly one of the hardest tokens to get, why not change this token that's requirement is pointlessly specific.

I should be able to get this token without doing such needlessly (in my opinion) stupid meaningless tasks such as:

Miss every yellow note and hit every other note on "Nanairopanda" and have no more than 5 goods or 5 boos and 0 averages (and pass) to unlock Nanairopanda v2.

Which it's self is a dumb token to begin with.

Get at least 2 average-misses on "Improvisation et Chien" while keeping your averages, boos, and misses all the same number and pass it to unlock Frozen Bond.

Especially when AV-misses don't exist anymore.

Get more boos than misses than averages than goods than perfects on "party 4u -holy nite mix- v2" to unlock party 4u -holy nite mix- v3.

Who the fuck wants to play arguably the worst file in the game to play?

Get at least 20 more averages than goods and at least 150 more perfects than goods on "Noir" Remixed to unlock Crow Song.

This counter productive garbage to most of the fucking community.

Someone explain to me why it's so vital to leave requirements like this in. Because I am 100% sure without drudging up that others have earned it this way already, you have literally zero argument.

When part of the fucking requirement is that you AAA a file so hard it's rarely gonna happen without serious devotion anyways.

It's so. Fucking. Stupid. Come on already.

Let's fix this meaninglessly specific token already for fuck's sake.

Sorry if it seems like I am taking this out on you but really, this just needs to happen already. I don't understand the significance of leaving this requirement in the same stupid, pointless, absolutely garbage state it's in.

You have to AAA a fucking "FMO" level song for this already. It's hard enough without adding these absolute trash can worthy level requirements into the mix. Especially when you are willing to change Here We Go.

//my opinions are of course littered in here but I do know you all understand my point. to tldr it: requirement should be changed because even after the change it's needlessly difficult and subtracting anti-pa requirements, and ones that don't make sense anymore, from the mix don't really make it any less difficult to obtain. You're still going to have to be devoted to earning it, which in all retrospect, should be good enough.

Just yeah, pardon my derail, but really. This has bothered me for the longest time.

Tokens in general bother me.

[rushyrulz]

We're not looking at skill tokens just yet, but as I said earlier, I'm open to the opinion of the community in regards to any token requirements that are deemed unjust, unreasonable, unfair, etc.

I'm taking this in stages and the first stage is the currently dormant tokenbase that is normal "hidden" tokens.

Undoubtedly some of the skill token requirements will need to be changed as well, but I haven't put significant thought into them quite yet. I have plenty of time this summer to work on this project and hopefully we can have implementation before the end of the year (the coding aspect is out of my hands, unfortunately), but it does seem like something that most of the staff is currently interested in polishing up.

It's great to see someone that has an obvious passion for this, you have valid points that I will definitely take into consideration when I move over to skill tokens. Unfortunately, Token Whore has one of the most contested requirements. There are arguments for and against it, and I'll just list a couple here.

For arguments:
1) Token Whore serves a historic purpose
2) Requiring the first 99 skill tokens instead of any 99 skill tokens creates an additional challenge
3) A wide skillset is required to unlock the first 99 skill tokens, whereas a more narrow skillset will suffice for unlocking any 99 skill tokens.
4) With the "any 99" model, the requirement can only become easier and easier (can never get harder) as more tokens are added, in essence devaluing the token over time.
5) People who worked towards getting the first 99 may feel discredited if the requirement is relaxed that much.

Against arguments:
1) There are a lot of shitty reqs in the first 99 that are "meaninglessly specific".
2) Too exclusive to top-tier players.
3) Not fun to work towards.
4) Reward is not worth the effort (meme stepfile for a serious requirement).
5) "Token Whore" as a title implies that you have n tokens, not the first n tokens.

Like I said, nothing is final and I haven't even started taking a close look at skill tokens yet. Feel free to make more suggestions, because we're at the preprocessing stage right now where I'm trying to gather as much information from the community as I can before proceeding.

[XelNya]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Like I said, nothing is final and I haven't even started taking a close look at skill tokens yet. Feel free to make more suggestions, because we're at the preprocessing stage right now where I'm trying to gather as much information from the community as I can before proceeding.

Are you guys like doing a rework of the tokens? Because a while back I went through and sorted them a bit and would still love to see it happen. I'd be willing to go back through it too.

Gonna just knock these out while I'm here though.

For arguments:
1) Token Whore serves a historic purpose
I can agree to this, because it is the 100th of them, but I'm not sure "history" is a good reason to leave something the same. Because if that's the case social progress would be uh, not existent. Yeah extreme example, but you get my point.
2) Requiring the first 99 skill tokens instead of any 99 skill tokens creates an additional challenge
I'm all for keeping the challenge high, and to alleviate it we can sort of design it to be specific, but not so specific to just the first 100.
3) A wide skillset is required to unlock the first 99 skill tokens, whereas a more narrow skillset will suffice for unlocking any 99 skill tokens.
You're still somewhere in the line gonna have to do something specific as of right now. If anything we could adjust the requirement to be more like the support tokens in that you have to have unlocked ones from a list to get it added. In fact, upon thinking on it a little, that might be the best way to go.
4) With the "any 99" model, the requirement can only become easier and easier (can never get harder) as more tokens are added, in essence devaluing the token over time.
See above, I unintentionally went over this one already.
5) People who worked towards getting the first 99 may feel discredited if the requirement is relaxed that much.
There are zero times where this being a deciding factor, is a good thing.

EX: Speedvibe Oni. Imagine if that still had the same list.

At the end of the day, sure we should kinda lower the standards, but it should be a to a point where about a D4 - low D5 player should be around where you get this. You'll have put in the effort for a more diverse skill set by then I'm thinking.

Just you know food for thought on it. I really have been wanting this changed for a long time.

[rushyrulz]

Thanks for that post. I remember seeing it before, but didn't know how to find it again!

I think there will be a more "types" of tokens by the time all is said and done, so I don't see why dividing skill tokens into "Skill tokens" and "Anti-skill tokens" would necessarily be a bad thing. Implementation worries me a little bit, but if we're heading to the point where new categories are being added anyway, what's one more?

[sickufully]

What is the possibility that any of these will be considered for new tokens or token reqs?

Original Pseudo Tokens
Pseudo Tokens 2012
Pseudo Tokens 2014

I'm not sure if there are more threads on Pseudo Tokens are these were the only ones I found after a quick search.

Also, I'm totally in favour of there being Skill and Anti-Skill Token types.

[rushyrulz]

ST token requirements won't get messed with much, so the pseudo skill token threads might be good for new tokens instead.

[sweet2kill210]

I'm always hoping there will be a new skill token. Right now I'm trying my best to improve because I want that one for getting <19 goods and <19 boos with no misses on All Your Base Are Belong to ME and also Here We Go. They really help with motivation to improve (other than just coming up with my own goals).

Challenge Tokens are the bomb-diggity.

[Red Blaster]

In regards to the token for Multiplayer Level 10, if you join into either the Velocity or Legacy lobbies rather than Universal, you still have the old MP level rank displayed in place of the Skill Rating rank which seems to be exclusive to the Universal lobby.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this previously, but yeah figured I'd toss it out there because I see that token discussed a lot. It's still fairly easy to check your progress on that one if you know how, but I'm not opposed to it being changed.

[rushyrulz]

Yes I'm aware, but as far as I'm concerned, if you need to access a legacy engine to track your progress on a token, it needs a rework. Personally speaking, when MP levels were removed it took a competitive weight off my shoulders and made MP more fun to just fart around in again. I've also seen MP activity go up gradually since the changes were made, which is kind of refreshing.

That being said, we already have another requirement laid out for Slow Motion that we think is even better!

[Red Blaster]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Personally speaking, when MP levels were removed it took a competitive weight off my shoulders and made MP more fun to just fart around in again. I've also seen MP activity go up gradually since the changes were made, which is kind of refreshing!

Completely agree with this.

[gold stinger]

Mostly just skimmed the thread for content & stuff but hopefully it wasn't brought up already.

I made skill token & regular token graphics awhile ago here

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...d.php?t=136631

Originally Posted by gold stinger

I have no problem with anyone using them, be it the website, sponcon, or other stuff.

I don't want there to be an issue or anything of lacking graphics for tokens holding back the possibilities/requests of new token-related songs. If it's really desired, I can sit down for a day and pump out more if needed. Most of the ones I have here mimic the set-style of early game tokens, but I can just as much attempt to pour time into real standalone tokens for individual songs.

[A Typhlosion]

I kind of like the whole V2 tokens, where it's an improved chart related to doing well on the bad, but often simpler, chart/