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Old 08-26-2018, 12:20 PM   #21
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Arch idk if you realize this but you're basically asking for a solution to the unsolved problem that is pragmatics analysis in natural language processing.
had no idea this existed, no. completely unfamiliar with NLP as a field.

I'm concerned with the application to language rules / speech codes, such as the vagueness in policies that prohibit insults -- because for every policy that prohibits insults, it also seems to prohibt neutral, but displeasing information about other people.
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Old 08-26-2018, 12:39 PM   #22
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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had no idea this existed, no. completely unfamiliar with NLP as a field.

I'm concerned with the application to language rules / speech codes, such as the vagueness in policies that prohibit insults -- because for every policy that prohibits insults, it also seems to prohibt neutral, but displeasing information about other people.
Well, that would be a very hard task and here's why:

1. You have to define a logical structure from a grammar and most likely use some probalistic analysis on words. See this for info on NLP grammars. See that for probabilistic parsing.

2. When backing up your claim that x structure tends to be content that prohibits insults, you Must stay objective in your definition of "prohibiting insults". You also need to somehow label many policies (prohibits insults y/n, prohibits neutral displeasing y/n, etc) or find such a dataset. Labeling that is a massive task because you can probably hardly remain objective, unless you come up with a thorough labeling system that is accepted.

3. Same thing kinda for vagueness; that is probably a badly defined metric of language and would need a strong logical definition (in terms of NLP grammar, at least).
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

Well considering English is one of the most broken languages in terms of logic in existence, good luck determining anything.
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Old 08-26-2018, 02:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
Well, that would be a very hard task and here's why:

1. You have to define a logical structure from a grammar and most likely use some probalistic analysis on words. See this for info on NLP grammars. See that for probabilistic parsing.

2. When backing up your claim that x structure tends to be content that prohibits insults, you Must stay objective in your definition of "prohibiting insults". You also need to somehow label many policies (prohibits insults y/n, prohibits neutral displeasing y/n, etc) or find such a dataset. Labeling that is a massive task because you can probably hardly remain objective, unless you come up with a thorough labeling system that is accepted.

3. Same thing kinda for vagueness; that is probably a badly defined metric of language and would need a strong logical definition (in terms of NLP grammar, at least).
Building off what OpKiller said, computationally (read: procedurally) this task is currently unsolved.

But humans can do this, albeit inconsistently, because we are exceptionally good at building heuristics on-the-fly. So I don't think it's not worth discussing, but a lot of the answers you'll find for specific cases is "because that's just how it is".
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:15 PM   #25
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

I think most societies have a pretty consensus-driven view of what is an insult or not. You could use a population sample to review conversations and determine if there is much of a consensus on whether an insult occurred or not. If this is the case, you can use the responses to train a supervised neural network (see: backpropagation).

The more interesting question becomes what sort of richness do you need in the dataset to make the evaluation? Do we need information on the surrounding scene? Speaker and audience relationship? What happens on different media like video vs text transcripts? Etc...
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

personal attack: arch0wl has a bad face

insult: arch0wl has a bad face

true statement: arch0wl has a bad face

i don't see a difference?
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I think we can all agree on the answer, yeah?
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

There was a time a few years ago when I thought arch0wl was just a bunch of different ffr people who would all post together on one account.
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:38 PM   #28
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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I think most societies have a pretty consensus-driven view of what is an insult or not. You could use a population sample to review conversations and determine if there is much of a consensus on whether an insult occurred or not. If this is the case, you can use the responses to train a supervised neural network (see: backpropagation).

The more interesting question becomes what sort of richness do you need in the dataset to make the evaluation? Do we need information on the surrounding scene? Speaker and audience relationship? What happens on different media like video vs text transcripts? Etc...
If there was such a dataset, you'd need contextual information. Otherwise, you'd only pick up insults with very strong words/n-grams such as "fuck you", "bitch", etc. Pretty sure a PCA would show some interesting relationships between the vocabulary and the various contextual data, but then there is just So much info that can be needed to understand an insult...
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

Imagine the following:

- Someone (person P) knows someone else (person Q) very well. P tells Q a certain insult X. A population reads X and determines it most likely isn't an insult, because they don't know Q (and P) at all. In this case, X will probably always be misclassified.
- Same scenario but P means no insult to Q. However, the population believes it is one. Also problematic.

Therefore, you cannot possibly have a classifier that performs on anything else than non-pragmatic analysis and since we (as humans in a society) communicate by using a whole lot of contextual information, that classifier would most likely do nothing interesting.
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:29 PM   #30
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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it seems that, for every insult, e.g.
"you're stupid"
this can just be expanded on, to e.g.
"you're stupid" --> "you're being stupid" --> "you're being thoughtless" --> "you have not given this issue due diligence"
Buddha washed life down enough to say that all suffering stems from ignorance. Furthermore, the dhammapada describes many ignorant actions as ones done by fools. It basically says 'you're foolish' which could easily be the same as 'you're stupid' and it's a well-renowned religious text for like, one of the most pacifistic religions around, and it literally has insults embedded in it. In it's case though, the insults are of a general, non-directed nature, and intended to make people think things through more as a general matter of course. Nor is there anything about them actually being -right-

I seem to one of those people that can be insulted from literally anything. I'm specifically remembering that 1 TWG I played on here where I chewed someone's head off for being too nice to me because I perceived I was being treated differently due to not having a dick and it fucked up the game royally because it wasn't clear, due to it being in a game setting, that that was my actual intention for ranting. Good times!
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Old 11-18-2018, 03:35 PM   #31
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
Imagine the following:

- Someone (person P) knows someone else (person Q) very well. P tells Q a certain insult X. A population reads X and determines it most likely isn't an insult, because they don't know Q (and P) at all. In this case, X will probably always be misclassified.
Why imagine it when you can real-life live it every goddamn day of your life for months?
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Old 11-18-2018, 04:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Why imagine it when you can real-life live it every goddamn day of your life for months?
Are you ok?

--

Anyhow, the way I see it is that there is no difference between a personal attack, an insult, or a true statement, when just looking at the words alone. After all, these labels are applied after someone receives the message and judges as such. I don't think there's any reason to figure out the difference because determining if it's an insult or a statement is done with so much more context than just the words alone.

TL;DR - there's no difference if trying to analyze solely on the words

Last edited by mewtikz; 11-18-2018 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 05:39 PM   #33
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by PrincessCaderpio View Post
Buddha washed life down enough to say that all suffering stems from ignorance. Furthermore, the dhammapada describes many ignorant actions as ones done by fools. It basically says 'you're foolish' which could easily be the same as 'you're stupid' and it's a well-renowned religious text for like, one of the most pacifistic religions around, and it literally has insults embedded in it. In it's case though, the insults are of a general, non-directed nature, and intended to make people think things through more as a general matter of course. Nor is there anything about them actually being -right-

I seem to one of those people that can be insulted from literally anything. I'm specifically remembering that 1 TWG I played on here where I chewed someone's head off for being too nice to me because I perceived I was being treated differently due to not having a dick and it fucked up the game royally because it wasn't clear, due to it being in a game setting, that that was my actual intention for ranting. Good times!
It takes a fool to know a fool. So when someone calls you one, take it to heart; it may serve you well into the future.
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Old 11-18-2018, 06:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by PrincessCaderpio View Post
I seem to one of those people that can be insulted from literally anything. I'm specifically remembering that 1 TWG I played on here where I chewed someone's head off for being too nice to me because I perceived I was being treated differently due to not having a dick
Eww u don't have a dick wtffff that's gross
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by PrincessCaderpio View Post
Buddha washed life down enough to say that all suffering stems from ignorance. Furthermore, the dhammapada describes many ignorant actions as ones done by fools. It basically says 'you're foolish' which could easily be the same as 'you're stupid' and it's a well-renowned religious text for like, one of the most pacifistic religions around, and it literally has insults embedded in it. In it's case though, the insults are of a general, non-directed nature, and intended to make people think things through more as a general matter of course. Nor is there anything about them actually being -right-

I seem to one of those people that can be insulted from literally anything. I'm specifically remembering that 1 TWG I played on here where I chewed someone's head off for being too nice to me because I perceived I was being treated differently due to not having a dick and it fucked up the game royally because it wasn't clear, due to it being in a game setting, that that was my actual intention for ranting. Good times!
twg

who you?

edit: i took a fun trip down memory lane and realized who you were. that game was a ride.....
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Originally Posted by MixMasterLar View Post
is funny eaman?
Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
Quote:
Originally Posted by the sun fan View Post
GET DUNKED FUNNY
(eaman is her name irl, friend)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadoWolfe View Post
Heh never underestimate the power of free time
boredom
wanting to get to know you all
true love
a sense of community
blackmail
weekend warriors
my desire to know everyone's dirty lil secrets


our mutual desire to be funny bois and gurls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
There comes a point where we have to ask our selves, "do we really want to deal with that, desperate as we are?"

I think we can all agree on the answer, yeah?

Last edited by Funnygurl555; 11-18-2018 at 08:16 PM..
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Old 11-18-2018, 10:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

Personal attacks and insults are meant to offend.
True statements are not meant to offend.
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Old 11-18-2018, 11:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

let this thread die

edit: since this is """critical thinking""" and I don't want to get banned I'll add that the distinction in the OP is """critically""" useless
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Last edited by DaBackpack; 11-18-2018 at 11:38 PM..
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Old 11-19-2018, 03:27 AM   #38
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by Elena- View Post
It takes a fool to know a fool. So when someone calls you one, take it to heart; it may serve you well into the future.
*yawn*
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Old 11-19-2018, 03:28 AM   #39
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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edit: i took a fun trip down memory lane and realized who you were. that game was a ride.....
Yeah I never liked you before, still don't like you now. You should be in jail or helping put the person who told you to write that, in jail.

Last edited by PrincessCaderpio; 11-19-2018 at 03:30 AM..
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Old 11-19-2018, 07:58 AM   #40
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Default Re: what's the difference between a personal attack, an insult, and a true statement

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Originally Posted by PrincessCaderpio View Post
Yeah I never liked you before, still don't like you now. You should be in jail or helping put the person who told you to write that, in jail.
surprised that you have an opinion of me at all really. unfortunately that's not mutual.
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Originally Posted by MixMasterLar View Post
is funny eaman?
Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
Quote:
Originally Posted by the sun fan View Post
GET DUNKED FUNNY
(eaman is her name irl, friend)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadoWolfe View Post
Heh never underestimate the power of free time
boredom
wanting to get to know you all
true love
a sense of community
blackmail
weekend warriors
my desire to know everyone's dirty lil secrets


our mutual desire to be funny bois and gurls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
There comes a point where we have to ask our selves, "do we really want to deal with that, desperate as we are?"

I think we can all agree on the answer, yeah?
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