Why is misanthropy not considered bigotry?

[stargroup100]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't mean she'll actually go and kill every single human, or even a single human for that matter. Is simply thinking that still selfish and unfair? What's wrong with that view then?

Suppose someone you respected who did not harbor any kind of hate that you can observe secretly felt the same way, but never acts upon this feeling or communicates it. How could you ever tell that this person had any hate? If you couldn't tell, why does it matter?

Have you never felt hate for anything? Do you even hate these hateful people we're talking about?

[Zaevod]

I was talking about what I find logical/reasonable. This is critical thinking, after all. Ideas are not harmless at all, and if hateful ideas spread, there can be some terrible physical consequences, as history clearly shows.

So, you never question people's unfair and poorly based beliefs because they might not motivate actions? I always thought truth should stand on its own.

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Zaevod

I was talking about what I find logical/reasonable. This is critical thinking, after all. Ideas are not harmless at all, and if hateful ideas spread, there can be some terrible physical consequences, as history clearly shows.

So, you never question people's unfair and poorly based beliefs because they might not motivate actions? I always thought truth should stand on its own.

But that's exactly my point. Just because a person hates a group of people or hates humanity, that doesn't make it wrong. What would be wrong would be to act irrationally, unethically, unfairly, irresponsibly, etc. Spreading false and/or dangerous information would be an example of this.

You're criticizing these people for the wrong reason. If they hate a group of people and they treat them unfairly, sure, go ahead and criticize them for that. But don't generalize all people that hate a group as being illogical. You don't like it when others generalize, and you're doing it yourself with these people.

[Zaevod]

No, I'm not generalizing anything. I'm making a statement based on the beliefs they have already shown.

Beliefs don't need to translate into actions to be stupid. I could believe that the center of the earth is made of candy and do nothing about it, but the belief would still be illogical and stupid on its own, and people would be free to call me out on my idiocy on that case.

Believing/wishing that every human should die except for the ones someone cares about is illogical, selfish, unfair and stupid. There is nothing logical that supports this feeling. If someone tells me that, I'll call them out on it regardless of whether they plan to kill anyone or not.

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Zaevod

No, I'm not generalizing anything. I'm making a statement based on the beliefs they have already shown.

You:
"All people who hold hatred towards a group are illogical and idiotic."
The people you don't like:
"All people who hold hatred towards black people are illogical and idiotic."

The only way these two can be different is if you think "hatred towards a group" itself is idiotic. That could be your opinion. But the fact of the matter is there do exist idiots in this world. That doesn't make this concept in general unfair or wrong.

Even if it was idiotic and illogical, how does it make it unfair or selfish? Because they're blaming people for things they didn't do? The act of blaming still happens in their mind, just as the hate is solely in their mind. Thinking that is still unfair and selfish?

Remember we're still talking about "hating of a group", not acting upon it in any way that is irresponsible or unethical.

[Zaevod]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

You:
"All people who hold hatred towards a group are illogical and idiotic."
The people you don't like:
"All people who hold hatred towards black people are illogical and idiotic."

The only way these two can be different is if you think "hatred towards a group" itself is idiotic. That could be your opinion. But the fact of the matter is there do exist idiots in this world. That doesn't make this concept in general unfair or wrong.

Even if it was idiotic and illogical, how does it make it unfair or selfish? Because they're blaming people for things they didn't do? The act of blaming still happens in their mind, just as the hate is solely in their mind. Thinking that is still unfair and selfish?

Remember we're still talking about "hating of a group", not acting upon it in any way that is irresponsible or unethical.

Keep in mind that I called the belief stupid, not necessarily the people. People can believe certain stupid things but be smart overall.

You're somehow trying to paint me as a hypocrite and are failing to understand the message. All I'm saying is that these hateful beliefs have no true logical reasoning behind them. Keyword: "logical", feelings don't really apply. Do you contest this statement? If so, can you at least explain why?

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Zaevod

is illogical, selfish, unfair and stupid.

Why selfish and unfair?

But even so, just hating a group is just a feeling a person holds. To say that it can't possibly be logical is still far-fetched.

[Zaevod]

You didn't really answer my questions.

Originally Posted by stargroup100

Why selfish and unfair?

The idea that everyone should die, except for the people one cares about, is a perfect example of selfishness. It implies that only those whom you personally know and validate have worth and deserve to live.

Do I really have to explain why it's unfair?

EDIT: I forgot to answer your question: "do I hate people who hate others"?

The answer is no. Not necessarily. I only hate evil people. That includes people who act upon their hateful beliefs and that spread falsehoods due to being willfully ignorant or bigoted. Oh, and people that have the power to prevent evil but choose not to. And, no, not everyone is like that.

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Zaevod

All I'm saying is that these hateful beliefs have no true logical reasoning behind them.

And I'm saying that there could be logical reasons.

Firstly, once again, there's a difference between hating each individual person and hating an entire group. When a person makes generalizations, they make it about the entire group, which could be true. It is unfair to act upon these generalizations by applying it to each individual person, but if there's sound evidence for the generalization as a whole, it's not illogical to think it. "Black people are fast runners." The evidence could be by observing that the fastest runners in the Olympic games tend to be black. Doesn't mean that every black man is fast.

Secondly, hating a group of people is still just a feeling. There are two kinds of "logic" for this. The explanation for how the feeling of hatred manifested, and the explanation for the justification of a belief that leads to the feeling of hatred. The former is probably not what you're referring to and an answer exists anyways. The latter assumes that there exists a belief that consequently causes the feeling of hatred. And even if it does exist, it could be logical, as I explained above.

Wishing that everyone should die is not necessarily selfish. It's a fantasy, and in our own fantasies, why would we care about anyone else? The point is to satiate our own desires without any limits. Actually killing everyone would be selfish and wrong, but just thinking that is not only not necessarily selfish, but also normal.

[Zaevod]

"I hate blacks. Black people are bad and they deserve to die an agonizing death. I think so because I was wronged by this black person that one time."

Let's imagine that this little "fantasy" spreads. The original person who had the fantasy didn't really act on it. He was completely innocent, but he managed to cause others to share similar feelings. The number of people that share the feeling only grows, and many merely follow on the footsteps of others without really thinking for themselves and questioning whether the idea has a rational justification behind it.

There's nothing that could possibly go wrong, there. Right? It's just a fantasy. Why question the person that holds the belief?

[stargroup100]

Sigh.

Yes, I have already agreed that that would be wrong.

What I said was: Not ALL hatred towards one group is wrong or illogical. You shouldn't generalize all hate in such a way. You should evaluate it on a case by case basis. In this particular case you evaluated, you decided that it was wrong. (This is under the assumption that fantasies can even spread to that degree)

I'm not defending all hate. I'm saying that it's possible to have logical hatred towards a group.

[Zaevod]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

Sigh.

Yes, I have already agreed that that would be wrong.

What I said was: Not ALL hatred towards one group is wrong or illogical. You shouldn't generalize all hate in such a way. You should evaluate it on a case by case basis. In this particular case you evaluated, you decided that it was wrong.

...

I'm not defending all hate. I'm saying that it's possible to have logical hatred towards a group.

Extrapolating the behavior of individuals you met to the whole group may justify certain behaviors you have in relation to the group, as long as those behaviors are not destructive (that still doesn't make it logical). I might be unable to stop someone from fearing and avoiding people from a group in general, but they should be questioned if their personal experiences with members of the group give birth to hateful fantasies such as the one you mentioned, because there is no good reason for those hateful ideas to exist. They will not necessarily cause actual damage, but they can, and it's best to avoid that if possible. So, why not question the people who hold the beliefs, if they can think about it and realize that nothing good comes from it?

Originally Posted by stargroup100

(This is under the assumption that fantasies can even spread to that degree)

Ever heard of religion? Fascism?

[stargroup100]

Originally Posted by Zaevod

...they should be questioned if their personal experiences with members of the group give birth to hateful fantasies such as the one you mentioned, because there is no good reason for those hateful ideas to exist.

There is no good reason to accept ideas that resulted from our personal experiences. You don't see a problem with this?

If I got sick every time I ate an oyster, is there not a good reason to believe that the next oyster I eat will very likely make me sick?

Originally Posted by Zaevod

They will not necessarily cause actual damage, but they can, and it's best to avoid that if possible. So, why not question the people who hold the beliefs, if they can think about it and realize that nothing good comes from it?

Once again, you assume nothing good comes out of it. How do you know this, what led you to that conclusion?

By your logic, we should also question people that do anything solely for personal gain, such as riding a roller coaster. You gain no real benefit out of it aside from a bit of pleasure and you risk the coaster malfunctioning and possibly hurting or even killing you. I guess we should ban roller coasters.

Hating a religious group that is known to terrorize people is a good thing. We as a society are saying that this is unacceptable. A lot of people hate creationists for spreading incorrect ideas about the origin of the universe. These are kinds of hate that fuel postiive ideas. It doesn't mean we'll go and eradicate these people, but there's nothing wrong with hating them.


Once again, hate is a natural emotion that almost all humans experience. Religions often tell us to question our sexual urges and repress them, even though they're totally natural. Why should we suppress feelings of hatred if they're natural? Just because we find someone sexually attractive, it doesn't mean we'll rape them. Just because we hate something, doesn't mean we'll act upon it. What's the problem here?

[Zaevod]

Originally Posted by stargroup100

There is no good reason to accept ideas that resulted from our personal experiences. You don't see a problem with this?

If I got sick every time I ate an oyster, is there not a good reason to believe that the next oyster I eat will very likely make me sick?

I think we're going in circles, as I think that I already made it clear why those generalizations are not logical when applied to humans. But let me try to explain, again, in more detail:

There are a lot of people in the world. Most of them are not killers or torturers or whatever, but some are. Unless the thing that bothers you about a certain group is an essential part of the group, such as the extreme bigotry of certain religious groups, then it makes no sense to generalize traits you found in specific people you met to the whole group.

There's a big difference between saying "I hate killers!" or "I hate rapists!" and saying "I hate asian women!", if the only killers and rapists you've ever known happen to be asian women (somehow).

To hate humanity as a whole, the only possible reason would be if there's a highly negative trait proven to be common to all or the vast majority of humans. I don't think that such a trait exists, unless you consider things such as "thinking", "being flawed" or "having legs" as traits to justify hatred.

A common one that pops up is that "humans take too many resources from nature", but this is also a bad reason. Humans take many resources because the human population is high, because we are relatively successful as a species. Any species that somehow managed to expand to that extent would also leave a large mark on nature. Also, humans are a part of nature, and the universe itself doesn't have any feelings about any particular species, but I digress...

You will only ever know a very small percentage of people, so generalizing from these very few people you meet is simply irrational in the majority of cases, unless the generalization happens to very specific, restricted groups and have a significant statistical basis of some sort.

[stargroup100]

I'm so fucking done. The hypocrisy is unreal.

A generalization about a group does not apply to all members of a group.

The oyster example is exactly the same as the human one. There's nothing inherently wrong with oysters, as there is nothing inherently wrong with people. There probably exist oysters I can eat and not get sick, just as there are people that don't fit a generalization I make. Doesn't mean I'm gonna eat an oyster, and it doesn't mean one can't hate people. You claim the oyster example is different from humans, but all you do is explain the human case, you don't show how it is any different.

Originally Posted by Zaevod

There are a lot of people in the world. Most of them are not killers or torturers or whatever, but some are. Unless the thing that bothers you about a certain group is an essential part of the group, then it makes no sense to generalize traits you found in specific people you met to the whole group.

Originally Posted by check this out

There are a lot of oysters in the world. Most of them are not going to make me sick, but some are. Unless the thing that bothers you about certain oysters is an essential part of the oyster, then it makes no sense to generalize traits you found in specific oysters you ate to all oysters.

Hate is a natural emotion. Virutally all humans experience hatred. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't harm others.

Originally Posted by Zaevod

You will only ever know a very small percentage of people, so generalizing from these very few people you meet is simply irrational in the majority of cases

You only know how a small percentage of people think. Why do you automatically assume that everyone that doesn't think like you is wrong? Just because you don't see a rational reason doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Can you prove there aren't rational reasons to hate conclusively? Are you that arrogant?

If this doesn't get through to you I'm done. I've spent far too much time trying to explain something elementary about human nature.

[Reincarnate]

Zaevod: What kind of food do you like?
Me: I like Japanese food.
Zaevod: NO. WRONG. YOU LIKE THE SUBSET OF JAPANESE FOOD THAT YOU HAVE HAPPENED TO ENJOY, YOU CANNOT SAY THAT ABOUT ALL JAPANESE FOOD. IT IS ILLOGICAL TO SAY THAT YOU LIKE JAPANESE FOOD.

[Zaevod]

I think it's seriously retarded to compare a certain type of food to humans in general, but maybe that's just me.

Never mind. There's nothing illogical whatsoever in your friend wishing the death of everyone except for the ones she knows and cares about. Who am I to ever question something that motivated a certain belief? We are just supposed to accept everything.

[Reincarnate]

You're missing the point.

[devonin]

It's an argument against the form of your reasoning, not the content.

[Zaevod]

Then, let's try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

In the entire last page, what Stargroup basically did was to preach about how bigotry is acceptable unless it results in physical violence. What I said is that the reasons behind this bigotry should be questioned, because hating an entire group of people, or all people, should probably require a little more consideration than generalizing about food of a certain type.

He also cited as an example the beliefs of an incredibly bigoted friend. The friend didn't just generalize about humans because she only met nasty humans; in fact, Stargroup said that she had people she cared about. Instead of considering that there may be many other people in the rest of the world that are also worthy of her respect, Stargroup said that she wished death upon all the other humans.

I also explained that, even if bigots are not necessarily violent, their bigoted ideas can still spread and cause damage, and that, even if they don't, logic and reason should stand on their own and beliefs shouldn't just be dictated by feelings.

Stargroup called me a hypocrite (I don't think he understands the meaning of that word) and everyone else came to support the extremely reasonable Stargroup defending the thought process of bigots while bashing the evil, evil and crazy Zaevod.