orlando shooting

[Reach]

Originally Posted by korny

Except it's totally an Islam issue. If hatred and death toward the infidel weren't some of the most intrinsic and eloquently written parts of the Quran I would agree with you, but they are, and while a majority of a religion consisting of 1.6 billion people interpret the scripture differently, a minority consisting of over a hundred million do and are incentivized and undeterred by anything by way of their 72 Virgin wife paradise.

Roughly 3 quarters of the British Muslim population believes the Charlie hebdo cartoonists who were gunned down and killed by radical Muslims for depicting Muhammad blasphemously, should've been given a prison sentence. Almost half believe they should've been put to death. This is in Britain.

100 million might even be an understatement.

See: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

This is particularly relevant: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/0...overview-9.png


I agree. It's definitely an Islam problem.

And while I do agree with others here that there are other factors that went into what caused this incident, to ignore Islam is a grave error. Honestly, at this point with the history it has since taking over the middle east in the 70s...addressing the other variables is analogous to cutting the head off a hydra. Islam has some serious problems and liberal and loving muslims have a lot of work to do if they want to reform it.


Also, wishing you the best NinjaSM. Stay safe.

[korny]

Originally Posted by Reach

100 million might even be an understatement.

Yeah, was being modest tbh

[Kekeb]

nothing better than the moderate muslim meme

[Spenner]

If Germans started shovelling Jewish people into a ghetto, it'd be a sign that something is happening. We have way more warning signs than we deserve, that these extremists want a world different from what we do. It's sad, and pathetic, their attempts to scare us out of having any fight left. Amurica will not let this be the end.

Peace from both sides and being able to keep ideologies of their religious faith would be awesome... or at least understanding one another to a level where there is no hatred, but simply the belief characterizes the person somewhat in an area that can't be assessed in different ways.

Maybe I'm a broken record thinking we all need to just find a way to get along. Reality has to be slapped in the face of the people committing terror, and the engagement of attacks against people who think they are in the right, needs to be communicated more. It's just an unchanging opinion that is spreading to it's limits, where we feel no options but to be aggressive to get our message across (same with the terrorist side).

This just needs to be approached totally different, and without such paranoia and persecution in the way it's been.

Sad to hear this new... my sympathies to all who had any connection to the people involved.

[mellonxcollie]

@NinjaSM I feel for you. If there is ever anything one of us can do to help, please don't hesitate to come to us

I know that this might be a touchy thing for me to say, but I think the USA needs to seriously look at how it handles people with mental health issues. I don't want to blame mental health issues for this tragedy; bigotry and hatred were clearly the cause. But at the same time, I think it is pretty blatantly clear that this guy had some untreated mental illness. Maybe universal health care could help at least a few of these sick individuals...

[Mahou]

I feel so sick from all this. Never thought I'd be scared to leave my own house.

[Dynam0]

It pissed me off when CNN interviewed the ex-wife and her fiance with both of them heavily indicating the shooter had mental health issues, among them bipolar and aggressive tendencies. Then the second the interview concluded it went to CNN's expert panel who all flat out called the ex-wife's assessment baseless as she hadn't communicated with the shooter for 7-8 years and that this was "much more about radicalization than mental illness" I turned the TV off at that point lmao


Today presents a perfect storm for these kind of attacks to happen; you have a country that not only has gun issues, but it's one that has kicked the hornet's nest that is the middle east for the last 30 some-odd years which paints a giant red X on it, continually attempting to force the populace to conform to the western structure of politics. You now have a large, rapidly growing well of religious extremists with recruiters being so easily connected with "brothers and sisters" in other countries, taking to forums and obscure channels that the mentally unstable would likely flock to. Creating martyrs has never been this easy, no shit there's this many attacks. What can we do to stop this? Not a clue :/

[Rojaf]

just gonna drop this in here:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not...s-are-muslims/

breakdown of terrorist attacks on US soil between 1980 and 2005 by perpetrator:



also this, in case anyone was curious:



breakdown of specific events.

[Frank Munoz]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

This feels to me like it's a "gun control issue" in the same way 9/11 was an "airplane issue" or the Boston bombing was a "pressure cooker issue"... ect.

when's the last time you heard of someone, once again, takes control of another airplane and crashes it into a structure because it was so easy to access it in the usa?
or
"another day
another pressure cooker issue"
the context of 9/11 and the boston bombing are severely different than the Orlando shooting.
Though, all are tragic, the amount of recorded shootings this year alone is alarming; as with every year, compared to plane hijacks/suicides.

There aren't numerous mass murders caused by airplanes, or pressure cookers as they are, again, very rare.
You know that
these are not common threats
these are not contributing to repeating acts of violence
these are not weapons made solely to harm others

a person unloading a clip into another person
whether it be for violence, or for justice
is undoubtedly the highest beneficiary to all of what's listed above.
Which is why I believe people are suggesting more gun control, as firearms do not have a friendly history.


Also the religion talk
reach says
"to ignore Islam is a grave error",
exactly. just as
"to ignore gun control is a grave error"
"to ignore extremist is a grave error"
"to ignore ect. ..."

Our lenience is clearly present, but i believe all of us fundamentally consider the same things, just with a skew that overshadows the rest.


edit: rojaf those pie charts are more than a decade old, not saying they're inaccurate, but what's the purpose? Wouldn't a recent calculation be more beneficial?

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by Reach

100 million might even be an understatement.

See: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/

This is particularly relevant: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/0...overview-9.png


I agree. It's definitely an Islam problem.

And while I do agree with others here that there are other factors that went into what caused this incident, to ignore Islam is a grave error. Honestly, at this point with the history it has since taking over the middle east in the 70s...addressing the other variables is analogous to cutting the head off a hydra. Islam has some serious problems and liberal and loving muslims have a lot of work to do if they want to reform it.


Also, wishing you the best NinjaSM. Stay safe.

from that link:



from a different pew study, interesting for a few reasons:



also interesting:

[Shadowcliff]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

Today presents a perfect storm for these kind of attacks to happen; you have a country that not only has gun issues, but it's one that has kicked the hornet's nest that is the middle east for the last 30 some-odd years which paints a giant red X on it, continually attempting to force the populace to conform to the western structure of politics. You now have a large, rapidly growing well of religious extremists with recruiters being so easily connected with "brothers and sisters" in other countries, taking to forums and obscure channels that the mentally unstable would likely flock to. Creating martyrs has never been this easy, no shit there's this many attacks. What can we do to stop this? Not a clue :/

Nailed it. Beyond my requisite sympathy and condolence for fellow LGBTQ folk in the aftermath of the shooting, I can't help feel unsettled by this event, especially on the present stage... I just wonder whether we can expect the well of religious extremists, as you say, to grow, and how fast, and what that means, or what it could lead to in the long game. Or whether grassroots/"webroots" extremism could lead to terrible things, with aimless individuals bringing this or that known extremist cause to credit their own violence. That might just be my own pessimistic mental extrapolation. Like. I don't think that heavy internet surveillance is the answer, because that also can go down a bad rabbit hole. And I don't think that heavy gun control is a wholesale solution to violence either (also possible legislative rabbit hole). I mean, in America, we're so regularly desensitized to violence that even if we can get upset about an event like this, there are not a great deal of people who put the pieces together about what the USA does overseas. Living in a land of fantasy--or at least it often seems that way, with the way people are so selective about what they see outside these borders, myself being guilty of that...

I wanted to bring more to the table with this post but i'm pretty tired, so here's two cents.

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by korny

Except it's totally an Islam issue. If hatred and death toward the infidel weren't some of the most intrinsic and eloquently written parts of the Quran I would agree with you, but they are, and while a majority of a religion consisting of 1.6 billion people interpret the scripture differently, a minority consisting of over a hundred million do and are incentivized and undeterred by anything by way of their 72 Virgin wife paradise.

Roughly 3 quarters of the British Muslim population believes the Charlie hebdo cartoonists who were gunned down and killed by radical Muslims for depicting Muhammad blasphemously, should've been given a prison sentence. Almost half believe they should've been put to death. This is in Britain.

and a massive number of christians in the states support the killings in orlando

whats ur point

[SKG_Scintill]

@rojaf: About that loonwatch graph. I saw that one before, but it's forgetting something very important.

From your link:

On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005. That list can be accessed here (scroll down all the way to the bottom).

Although there may not be a surprising amount of Muslim-related attacks, the ones that did happen caused significantly more casualties.

But I don't think that reacting to terrorism with a feeling of terror is a good idea.

[DN_Catastrophic]

What's been bothering me lately is seeing the people that live near that club and how they were affected by hearing all the gun shots and screams. You can just tell in their face that they aren't doing well and they are just running on fumes because they haven't slept in days.

On a more positive note, this city has been very strong and supportive about this situation! Seeing an entire city come together over such a tragedy is pretty mind blowing. The feel of the city is very warm and rich right now.

[korny]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

just gonna drop this in here:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not...s-are-muslims/

breakdown of terrorist attacks on US soil between 1980 and 2005 by perpetrator:



also this, in case anyone was curious:



breakdown of specific events.

Originally Posted by kommisar

and a massive number of christians in the states support the killings in orlando

whats ur point

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_...st_app=1&app=m

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill

@rojaf: About that loonwatch graph. I saw that one before, but it's forgetting something very important.

From your link:

Although there may not be a surprising amount of Muslim-related attacks, the ones that did happen caused significantly more casualties.

But I don't think that reacting to terrorism with a feeling of terror is a good idea.

absolutely. the terror attacks of september 11th are by far the most devastating.

but the idea that most terror attacks in the US are perpetrated by muslims is just wrong. you cant use a high death toll to argue that support for terrorism is widespread. you can use it to say that islamic terror is more deadly and i would never argue that point. but there's a big difference between the two, and you cant use one to prove the other. and statistics say that islamic terror is not widespread, and is not widely supported (especially isis).

there is a lot more support for hamas and hezbollah which while still wrong is a completely different issue for a completely different thread, since it doesn't really affect americans.

[ULTIMEGA]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

absolutely. the terror attacks of september 11th are by far the most devastating.

but the idea that most terror attacks in the US are perpetrated by muslims is just wrong. you cant use a high death toll to argue that support for terrorism is widespread. you can use it to say that islamic terror is more deadly and i would never argue that point. but there's a big difference between the two, and you cant use one to prove the other. and statistics say that islamic terror is not widespread, and is not widely supported (especially isis).

there is a lot more support for hamas and hezbollah which while still wrong is a completely different issue for a completely different thread, since it doesn't really affect americans.

I totally agree with this, and I have a support statement to that. Terrorism is a pretty touchy subject for most people, especially for the ones that really do not like talking about it. But it gives us something TO talk about in the first place, regardless of what form it takes. That's not to say terrorism is being promoted here, but the event was pretty bad. Although minuscule in comparison to 9/11 (which people are still talking about, by the way) it's still pretty devastating on the LGBT community, or ANY community for that matter.

As an added point, terrorism isn't just caused by Muslims. Anyone can cause terrorism, regardless of their race, religion, or beliefs. If they can think it, then it can be entertained as terrorism, and it's not just Muslims that are capable of such. Regardless if it was a Muslim, a white guy, a Latino, or any other race, Terrorism is Terrorism, regardless of how small or grand.

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by korny

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_...st_app=1&app=m

i would watch that video but it's linking me away from youtube?? to some weird site so no.

if you want to summarize or find a version of it that is actually on youtube then fine

[YoshL]

he linked a mobile youtube video

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I find it highly amusing that the narrative around this shooting is literally already about gun control and that it's apparently all white people's fault.
Holy shit get it together liberal media, this is the kind of jumping to conclusions that makes people vote for Trump.

That said, my heart goes out to those affected.

yeah and september 11th had nothing to do with airplanes which is why airtravel stayed exactly the same after september 11th and we have had so many repeats of the september 11th attacks. oh wait it's the opposite of that.