Gruntilda's Final Battle [64 or 67/68]

[Callipygian]

When playing through Gruntilda's Final Battle for the first time, there was nothing in the first two minutes or so to make me doubt that the 64 rating was roughly correct. The 16th runningmen patterns and the 24ths with a reasonably fast BPM and some short [3]-jacks in 24ths were sufficiently tricky to qualify for a relatively hard 'very challenging' label.

However, in the last minute there is quite a lengthy part with mini-jacks that tests jacking in all four arrows ([1], [2], [3], [4]) on high speed with quick transitions between the fingers. When compared to, say, Battle Theme #37, which I presume is rated a 67 because of the few mini-jacks in it, the mini-jacks in Gruntilda present a much bigger challenge.

This is also what I experienced on a second playthrough and my suspicion that I was not the only one having troubles was confirmed when looking through the high score list. Granted, the song was only recently released, but many high-tier players, including Fantasticone, Hakulyte, tosh, kmay, and the step artist himself, Charu, have not yet AAA'd this song.

I don't have a good memory for songs with comparable BPM or patterns, so I'm sorry if I fail to buttress my argument by a solid comparison to 64-69 difficulty songs, but the combination of a relatively long (3 min +) chart with up-speed 16ths and 24ths in sometimes tricky patterns, followed by a mini-jack section that even high division players tend to dump goods on, seems to me to warrant a higher difficulty rating than the one currently assigned to it.

I think the minijack part in particular make this chart a FMO and not the easiest one at that. I wouldn't say this is 70+ material, since it's only the 10 seconds or so of minijacks that are responsible for the difficulty spike that make me question the 64 rating, but with charts like Battle Theme (a few minijacks) and For FFR (atrocious roll-ending) getting a 67 because of short difficulty spikes, I think Gruntilda's Final Battle would also deserve a 67 or perhaps even a 68 rating.

[Jtehanonymous]

Quite possibly the only part of this song that warrants a rating in the 67/68 range is that slightly lengthy mini jack section that you mentioned. It's probably the only part I'm not confident with myself, although I haven't played the song too many times. (I currently have a BF)

I could see it being around a 65-66? Over 64 is definitely not exaggerating haha. But the fact that everything else is considerably easier (and I mean a LOT easier) still wouldn't be enough for just that portion to bump the whole thing up to a 68. :o

[XelNya]

The runningmen are actually really nice for spread players compared to what they COULD be. ( 4 3 4 2 4 ect.) Which is probably the only thing that keeps it from being higher, because the streams are relatively simple.

The chart is certainly harder than Battle Theme #37 if ONLY for the minijacks, which is honestly pretty disgusting. I'd lump it to 67 unless a better argument than just the minijacks is thrown into the pile. They're aids yes, but I think it's a case of Pandora or even MFDFY. It's got one hard part and the rest of it is laughably easier. I'd make sure to keep this out of Oni get territory though if possible. It's not an FMO, it's a VC with an FMO section that should have been done differently.

[blindreper1179]

It's a 62.

[___________]

Another case of borderline songs being harder to AAA than actual FMO's, but somehow being out of the [Oni] unlock range due to sheer spikiness of said song.

I say, keep it at a 10. The jacks, while fast, do not force awkward patterns on one hand. Charu could've done it a lot worse, at which point it would be in the FMO range.

[Gradiant]

Originally Posted by Jtehanonymous

But the fact that everything else is considerably easier (and I mean a LOT easier) still wouldn't be enough for just that portion to bump the whole thing up to a 68. :o

There are plenty of files with a high rating because of one tiny hard section.

Only problem with bumping this up is the rating is currently on par with CSGS, which is also hard because of the jacks. If Gruntilda is to be bumped up, CSGS should be too.

Could see this as a 66, similar to BKE. Easy JS, hard part is because of the few minijacks...

[___________]

The difference is, Black Key Etude has one-handed patterns (I said this in my last post) despite being at a slower BPM, while Gruntilda does not.

[YoshL]

Originally Posted by Gradiant

There are plenty of files with a high rating because of one tiny hard section.

Only problem with bumping this up is the rating is currently on par with CSGS, which is also hard because of the jacks. If Gruntilda is to be bumped up, CSGS should be too.

Could see this as a 66, similar to BKE. Easy JS, hard part is because of the few minijacks...

pretty sure CSGS is slower than gruntilda, idk exactly though

[Gradiant]

Originally Posted by YoshL

pretty sure CSGS is slower than gruntilda, idk exactly though

Sure, the thing is though, the csgs jack sets are longer and are placed in a pattern that is awkward to play, whike gruntilda is short minijacks organized in a broken staircase. Id say that makes them about equal.

Originally Posted by ___________

The difference is, Black Key Etude has one-handed patterns (I said this in my last post) despite being at a slower BPM, while Gruntilda does not.

I dont see as much of the one handedness in bke, and could say that the fact bke is slower makes it and gruntilda close in difficulty.

[One Winged Angel]

The great (read: hilarious) thing about 180bpm is you get conversions like this: 3 frame gaps between each minijack set but 2 frame gaps on the minijacks themselves



These sections easily make the file more difficult to AAA than a good handful of low FMOs, so I wouldn't mind making this a 66/67. It just lacks structural consistency in difficulty. I don't think we'd need to worry about an influx of Oni gets due to making this file an FMO (how many people have unlocked Oni on For FFR?)

[Charu]

Oh hey, it's my baby!

To be honest, was expecting a 65 difficulty rating. Though if you wanna make this a 66, no objection on my end, dohohoho.

Originally Posted by XelNya

It's not an FMO, it's a VC with an FMO section that should have been done differently.

If done differently you mean making it either a stream pattern or trill pattern, then eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...

[Gradiant]

Okay, first thing I see when I look at the image of the frames is the left hand stuff with the jump and minijack. Pretty much equals the few onehanded-ish sections in Black Key Etude I think. I'd love to see this as a 66.

[Charu]

Originally Posted by Callipygian

and the step artist himself, Charu, have not yet AAA'd this song.

Alright, I was going to prove a point or something and just post a AAA, but... I can't.

DANG IT!!!

[danceflashrevo]

I know I'm a big dummy ffr player that doesn't know what the hell he's doing but I honestly feel it's a 64 (but I'm better at jacks). Uhm... yeah just voicing my opinion. 65 at most. Definitely not an FMO imo.

[_Zenith_]

I tell ya, this new difficulty scale has me so confused.

Label it 9 and be done with it (for all you older FFR players)

When I first played the song, I though it fit perfectly, and then noticing I couldn't grab the AAA on a 64 on the first attempt, looking more closely at the chart as a whole, I'd say it's at best a 66, no higher. 67 is too high imo (if you play Very Challenging songs regularly) it best fits in as a 66 because of the minijack section that is almost but not quite there a FMO. The ending in itself also poses some tricky sections that would make this a 66, where if the ending and beginning were similar or exactly the same, It would be a 64/65 all day.

[AutotelicBrown]

I think you guys are overestimating a lot how hard that is to hit, so far the only valid point is the retarded 2-frame conversions that OWA pointed out.

At 180bpm that kind of minijacks are only somewhat hard when there is some kind of one-handed pattern going on, but on Charu's chart the hand is switched on each minijack. That also makes it extremely easy to start the mini-jacks early which softens a lot the 2-framers. And I suppose everyone agrees everything else is comparatively really easy. It is still terrible to sightread but I'm pretty sure that shouldn't be a factor.

I honestly would argue to lump it with Bowser the Shredder at 63 which has similar patterns at a slower speed but the rest of the chart makes up for it.

[Callipygian]

I can see now that my 67/68 suggestion may have been a bit over the top and likely influenced by my personal frustration at the mini-jacks :P. I think it's indeed fair to say that the runningmen are comfortable for spread players (including myself) and that the minijack staircase patterning does soften the difficulty. I guess my problem with hitting them well has to do with the frame issues that OWA pointed out. Hitting them a bit earlier may indeed avoid goods. Anyway, I'd still argue for 65/66, i.e. really hard VC or easy FMO with nasty difficulty spike.

I can see how this file is easy for some and, arguably, there are other 64's out there that are a pain to AAA even for those who regularly AAA high VCs (caprice for violin because lol-trill, Vertex BETA because long and trilly, Artificial Rose because rainbow, ORIENTAL SEA because bmah), so I would understand if Gruntilda remains at 64.

Shit, difficulty ratings are hard. Yesterday, I thought I finally saw a slip-up in the judging system, but dang, props to the judging board for limiting the number of dubious ratings to the point where it's hard to really find clear fault with pretty much any of them lol.

[TC_Halogen]

I'm alright with 65 for this; I'm not in agreement with [Oni] territory.

The minijacks, while being a bit tight, are cleanly converted. At 180 BPM, as Rob said, the conversion could have been nasty/inconsistent alternations of 3/2, and that doesn't happen here with the physical steps themselves. In addition to this, the mini-jacks alternate hands, so the patterns are generally very comfortable even when jumps are being hit.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Capping out at 15 NPS, I don't really think there is need to bump this chart into FMO territory, 65 tops.

Another point is that Bowser the Shredder, a 63, has some very similar speed jacks, just without the jumps.

[blindreper1179]

I was being legit about my 62 post. There's nothing too difficult. I can't put examples of other songs like some have, I don't know the songs well anymore, but I have been playing the shit out of songs I haven't played for about three years. I guess a 64 would be better.