Rates higher than 1.0 should record

[leonid]

Play the charts as stepcharters intended to plz

[choof]

Originally Posted by qqwref

I enjoy playing songs on rates too. What I don't see is why you'd want a rate score to be on the leaderboards, unless there is some advantage to being on rate. And if there is, it's unfair to the people who had to use 1.0, right?

An AAA on 1.0 and an AAA on 1.2 will look like the same score on the leaderboards.

I agree mirror makes playing a file different, but as long as you use spread the patterns are still the same and at the same speed, just mirrored.

A 1212 trill on mirror is 4343. That's not the same pattern.

Anchors are still anchors, jacks are still jacks, one-handed trills are still one-handed, just on the other hand.

lol

Playing on rate certainly makes patterns play differently, especially because of the 30 fps-ness.

You're right, patterns will play differently but this will vary completely from person to person, based on skill level and skill set.

For instance, rolls are easier to hit at some speeds than others

Sure, but there aren't any files in the game that consist only of rolls. Kono Spoon is pretty roll-heavy, but there are also awkward patterns that stay just as awkward at higher speeds. Skeletor is famous for it's roll, but using rates to cheat the roll will also make the rest of the file faster.

and a jack may be too fast to comfortably wristjack and too slow to vibrate, but on a rate it may be a good speed for vibrating.

Again, this will speed up the entire file.

I do want people to experience playing through old files, yes. You shouldn't be claiming you have AAAd 500 easy songs if you haven't

If I AAA'd a song on 1.2, no one is going to say that "it doesn't count because it's not 1.0," except assholes.

and if you don't want to play 500 easy songs, you don't deserve to be one of the people who has AAAd them all.

"Deserve?"

Part of the accomplishment is actually putting in the necessary time, and honestly, that's kind of a theme in FFR.

Says who? Last time I checked, the whole theme of FFR was that it was a game. And not only that, but it's a rhythm game. I'd say that people who can achieve your levelrank or higher with rates deserves to be called better than you.

Even Staiain can't get more than 1550 points a note, so if he wants 30 billion grandtotal, he will have to hit just as many notes as anyone else.

Good thing rates don't change overall note count!

And besides, the files are still bad on rates. They're just faster.

You're right. But playing them faster means we experience less time playing them.

[RagedBerserker]

I am going to play on 1.037x rate.

(I felt like this was something addressed in the other thread but had not been in this thread yet.)

[XCV]

This game should never have been about artificial difficulty.

Appealing to the hundreds of thousands of players we had four or five years ago or a handful of files made in Notepad when I was in second grade to further the argument that FFR should retain any number of inane flaws from before any community existed, even when there are people only now implementing features that have been in Stepmania for years, when there are almost certainly more ingame files than active levelrankers, when I'm in my second year of college, is one of the more ridiculous propositions I've heard since I've been on this site.

Not that putting in hours of your life better spent in myriad other ways to lower a number on a site maybe a thousand people still drop by now and then is remotely important, but if we're revamping the site soon, just maybe we should do the same for the game it's based around?

[awein999]

If it's not practical to make specific leaderboards for certain rates like 1.1, 1.2 etc. then it makes sense to exclude rates from current level ranks because it's a completely different accomplishment than what has been done in the past to get on those leaderboards. It's simply a different category. Whether it may or may not give an advantage to play a song faster in certain situations I'm not even going to debate because it's irrelevant.

Should count towards gameplays, grandtotal, and credits because you are playing official FFR charts and should be rewarded with credits and your gameplays should be shown as being recorded on the site. Grandtotal has always been an irrelevant statistic so it shouldn't matter what tiny ripple in the .01% of players this will impact greatly.

[EtienneSM]

I'm just going to ignore the arguing or whatever it is that's going on in the first page and post what I think about this idea.

Pros:

Not only will people get to enjoy playing the songs on rates, but it will also count as towards their level ranks if they get for example: 3g on Sleep 1.1 compared to 5g on Sleep 1.0. It be cool if it can show what rate they did it on for the leaderboards as well but I feel like that would be a pain to do. Just an idea.

It will make songs that experienced players know they can AAA very easily much faster and less boring, making level rank cleanups a breeze.

This can be useful for tournaments, it'd be cool to have a tournament where a random rate gets picked for a song in each division and they have to see how well they can score on it. Just another random idea as well, I think that would be relatively neat to see.

Cons:

The main one I see in this is that songs that abuse rolls would be easier to AAA/score on than if it was on a lower rate. For example, Skeletor. I remember someone else discussing this before but I feel like I should bring it up again. And Master Maid I believe it's called, that's another song that has a decent amount of rolls that would be easier to hit on 1.1 than 1.0. Those are pretty much the only songs that have these types of things in it but I feel like it wouldn't be a big deal. Besides the roll parts, the song would still be hard because of rate mods so I guess it's bittersweet in a way.

Grandtotal count is something that I would be concerned about if this rate mods counted, basically every 10 spots would be taken within a matter of weeks because of how high of a rate mod you can use. Although, it would make the 24 hour grandtotal leaderboard a bit more competitive so I guess it could be a good idea in a sense. Not to mention some people would just skyrocket with credits but if there's a way to not give credits out or something, there should be no reason not to implement rate-modding.


All and all, it wouldn't really be a big deal if rate mods were implemented, it'd be nice to see FFR make a big step like this, maybe make the game a bit more fun than it already is, I understand that you can already rate mod stuff, but if the scores were recorded, I feel like it would make a difference.

Yes.

[choof]

Originally Posted by awein999

then it makes sense to exclude rates from current level ranks because it's a completely different accomplishment than what has been done in the past to get on those leaderboards.

No it's not?

[XelNya]

Let's put it this way, if rates record, then removing the background has to record as well. You're still altering the way the chart is played. Shit if left and right are still in those have to record as well. You cannot allow one chart altering mod and not allow them all. I don't care how much each mod changes the game the issue is that they still change the game. And the reason I am fine with mirror vs everything else is because it only changes what hand you're hitting it with, not the whole pattern's technique completely (like left and right does.) Shit if you look at MFDFY's intro jump gluts mirror only reverses which way you hit them first, it doesn't change the fact you still have to hit that pattern.

I find it awful that short of AAAing an FMO no one could give two shits what kind of scores you obtain. Adding rates only makes this issue worse.

[awein999]

Songs become shorter, nps higher. That is a fundamental difference.

[choof]

it's still the same file

[Devilchilly]

These are the advantages of higher than 1.0 rates:
- Makes some songs more fun
- Fast speed training
- Adds more fun
- Less suffering and waiting for AAA's on long songs.
- Some others.
And some disadvantage:
- Sometimes could lag your FFR game.
- AAA'ing with a rate of 1.0x while others could have AAA'd the same song at >1.0x
- Others that I can't think.
Out of all, I would say, 80% yes and 20% no = yes.

[omega_grunt666]

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

[XCV]

Originally Posted by omega_grunt666

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

I don't think I ever asked about this, but I've wondered - is AS3 not compatible with everything? What's going on there?

And if so, can't we just retrofit all these wonderful things to Velo?

[choof]

Originally Posted by omega_grunt666

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3.
This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements. AAAing a song on Legacy/Velocity/R^3 all mean the same thing right now, letting R^3 have a new way of scoring throws that out of whack.

This is why I explicitly said that rates below 1.0 don't count for scoring, and the grandtotal divided by rate.

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by omega_grunt666

You guys are missing the point, it isn't just fairness of leaderboards, some people can legitimately not play R^3. This is something that fundamentally changes GTS farming and leaderboards. You can't ignore people just because they don't play the same version when you have a united leaderboard/achievements.

this logic would dictate that R^3 should be disallowed altogether because no one on Velo or Legacy can increase the amount of scroll space or raise the FPS setting.

[omega_grunt666]

Originally Posted by dAnceguy117

this logic would dictate that R^3 should be disallowed altogether because no one on Velo or Legacy can increase the amount of scroll space or raise the FPS setting.

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

Inputs are the same. the only legal modifier is mirror because it leaves the patterns intact and just flips the L/R bias. Doesn't matter if you play vanilla or 5.0 w/dizzy blind dark tornado, same inputs.

Why should someone vibrojacking a midrange song on high rates be putting up scores against newer players trying to just fc it normally? This is pointless without a seperate rates scoreboard because you cant even post leaderboard scores for songs you've already done, unless your implying you can play better at 1.3x vs 1.0. And how do you seperate those scores? Do we need 20 per song in 0.1 increments? It just doesnt work. Just save the replay and post in an appropriate thread.

Would be nice to get credits for playing rates though.

[icontrolyourworld]

I'm voting yes and here's why (along with some bias maybe)

1) I did put a lot of time into whoring through every single song on ffr, but if rates recorded and they actually were a thing at the time I would have played through all the easier songs on a rate.

2) It technically is an even playing field for everyone still. Everyone has access to play the files on rates. If they have a shitty computer that's their problem.

3) Rates are fun and you should be rewarded for having fun. It's a video game afterall.

4) (time to tread murky waters) What about when they fixed that avmiss or whatever? It's not fair that we can hit jacks and stuff now when a long time ago someone who doesn't play anymore couldn't. Same with new noteskins, speed boost, etc. It's good for this game to change as long as everyone still has fun. and besides it's just an option afterall.

5) There's only a handful of files that have a pattern in them that will be easier that are easy enough everywhere else as well that this would effect. And either way you won't get it in 1 go, you still would whore for it whether it be on 1.0 or 1.1 rate if you're going for the AAA


The only way I see this not being fair is to the people that have already worked really hard on their level stats and grandtotal, but since I'm fairly high on the leader board I think it's fair for me to say this would be a positive addition to the game that might even be attractive to players from stepmania or other games. And as I mentioned earlier I would have used rates to AAA easy/long files if I had the chance. I have the skill to do it, so why shouldn't I be rewarded?

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by omega_grunt666

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

to what extent does using a higher rate than 1.0 change the file?

[choof]

Originally Posted by omega_grunt666

Visual mods =/= Changing the file

Inputs are the same.

a file on 1.2 has the same inputs as the same file on 1.0

the only legal modifier is mirror because it leaves the patterns intact and just flips the L/R bias.

how can you equate "flips the L/R bias" to "leaves the patterns intact" lol

Why should someone vibrojacking a midrange song on high rates be putting up scores against newer players trying to just fc it normally?

you don't think an AAA on 1.2 is better than a FC on 1.0? this is why on the leaderboards, rates used to achieve scores shouldn't be indicated

[TheSaxRunner05]

@etienne the top ten wont all be replaced like you think, remember combo is a big factor in scoring, and people miss more on rates.

It would be interesting to see 2bil in a day though if someone combo'd Vs Boss Battle on 1.2 all day (or ehhs)

I don't think it would have a substantial impact on the value of a credit, and I think it would only make it slightly easier to get credits