07-15-2009, 12:03 AM | #41 |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
This is a bit of a semantic game, but you need to differentiate between causality in the universe and uncertainty.
I agree, the universal is causal in nature, based on a set of reactions that abide by the physical laws that founded it. There's still uncertainty for every observer in the universe, though, as this uncertainty is built right into those very laws that link the universe causally (See quantum mechanics, e.g. heisenberg uncertainty). This can be hard to understand, but in a nutshell the causally linked rules of the universe that ultimately always determine what happens next can never be fully known. There is always uncertain information that is changed and influenced by any and all attempts to know this information. As such, it's a bit like the universe can't really make up it's mind. Anyway, this has very little to do with the OPs original argument.
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07-15-2009, 12:57 AM | #42 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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07-15-2009, 02:11 AM | #43 |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
"Everything you just said, is utterly and completely... wrong."
Wow WTFBrandon, are you certain about that? Please don't post if you truly have nothing to say. If you'd like to present an argument please do it in a sensible, logical manner. Richhhard, I hope you understand that I'm referring to the present time of our understanding. I very much agree with you that maybe in the end, (assuming Quantum Mechanics are somehow more certain than we presently think they are) everything could be measured with perfect measurement. But as human beings we will never be able to reach that perfect measurement, or at least not for a very, very, very long time. As long as we cannot measure things perfectly, there will be uncertainty. (Sounds like a pretty basic concept) . |
07-15-2009, 02:53 AM | #44 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
NFD, you really haven't presented any kind of argument other than saying that everything he is saying is wrong. Any specific reasons why you think that?
To Reach and VulcanRevenge, sorry if my argument was not on target with the original post, I was mainly commenting on "Uncertainty is everywhere. However, it isn't something to get depressed about, it's only something to realize and accept." I saw that as relating to the rest of the argument. If you are talking about right now, for us, I would agree. I do not think it is something you have to accept though, the reason we have made the scientific advances we have is because of people that did not accept that everything was uncertain. If you are depressed about the uncertainty in the world then go out and try to find the answers. On another note, Quote:
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07-15-2009, 03:04 AM | #45 |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
Sigh.... NFD, this is the third time you've come in here, and all you've said is 'you're wrong, because I think you are.' If I don't understand what I'm saying then why am I posting paragraphs of my thought process while you're posting one-liners with no backing, evidence, or information?
I can understand your frustration because you think this is common knowledge, but I'm sure you would think otherwise if you saw someone break down because their total confidence in someone or something was completely shattered. (Which, I imagine, you've probably actually already witnessed) |
07-15-2009, 03:42 AM | #46 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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Everything we do in life is based on category. What size shoe we wear, how much of whatever we want on our plate, what kinds of books we want to read. If you had a library full of 10,000 books, but you only liked science fiction, of which there were about 500, you can't say that the other 9,500 aren't there. They're not of your choosing, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Let's say there are two copies of The Stand, by Stephen King. One of them has the cover torn off. You would still have two copies of The Stand, so whenever the books were counted, you would put down "Two copies of The Stand, King Stephen". In the end it doesn't really matter. It is what it is. |
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07-15-2009, 07:55 AM | #47 |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
mass and energy can neither be created or destroyed.
Just saying. you have one of whatever and one of another thing, no matter how you split it up, all of it combined equals...... 2
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07-15-2009, 08:57 AM | #48 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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It doesn't show that the universe itself is not causally linked, no, however, Heisenberg uncertainty does prove there is uncertainty in the universe relative to any observer...look at what you just said. If you cannot measure two quantum properties with precision at the same time that means there is an unknown, or uncertain variable. Really, my point is that you need to differentiate between uncertainty, which involves knowing, and the behavior of the universe as a whole. It's key to understand why we observe Heisenberg uncertainty - the reason the effect occurs is because by measuring one variable, you change the other. That is, the effect of observing changes the outcome of the event, or in other words, *the effect of knowing* changes the outcome of the event. And thus there will *always* be uncertainty, because in order to know and be certain, you have to change the outcome and be uncertain. Anyway, I'm still not really disagreeing with you, rather, I'm expanding on your point that I felt was a bit simplistic. You could argue much more strongly that everything in the universe is causally connected rather than nothing is uncertain, because they're two different issues.
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07-15-2009, 03:30 PM | #49 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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All I was trying to say is that because the observer perceives uncertainty, does not mean that the outcome is ever uncertain. As such I would say that the effect of knowing *does NOT* change the outcome of the event, because that assumes that another outcome could have occurred.In reality no other outcome could have been possible because even you measuring something and "changing" the outcome is something that could have been predicted. I see what you are saying though, because I am talking more about that is how the universe will behave, but doesn't that mean it should be *possible* for us to understand it? And thus *possible*, to a degree, to be certain about what is to come? For the present I know that is a ridiculous goal, even understanding how one blade of grass will develop requires enormous amounts of information, but knowledge grows exponentially, so given enough time, who knows? |
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07-15-2009, 03:43 PM | #50 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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07-15-2009, 07:32 PM | #51 | ||
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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The problem I had with the statement was with the use of the word 'uncertainty', because there is still, regardless of what I just said, always uncertainty. Even if you were God, and could hold the entire contents of the universe in your mind, by interacting with the universe itself and making any observations or measurements at all, you would change the outcome of an event. Thus, even knowing EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE KNOWN, it would be impossible to predict with 100% accuracy the outcome of every event at the quantum level (This poses an interesting problem for the idea of a 'divine plan', but that's another issue XD)
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07-15-2009, 10:01 PM | #52 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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On the other hand if you did interfere that might seem like you are then "changing the course of history" but you really wouldn't be because the forces acting on you lead you to do that, you just merely did not include yourself in the calculation and therefore the calculation was flawed. I don't know, this is getting way off topic from the original post though... |
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07-15-2009, 10:55 PM | #53 |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
"I don't know, this is getting way off topic from the original post though..."
naw, keep going, I feel like I've restated my original topic to death, this new spin is more interesting anyway... I agree with you Richhhard, "with the most complex calculation imaginable could you *theoretically* predict future events correctly, if you did not interfere with the event? If so then wouldn't it be fair to say that nothing is uncertain?" This makes logical sense. It conflicts with the concept itself to believe that we human beings know everything about the uncertainty principle. For now it answers some problems we've had with previous models but the model of the atom has changed and has been changing for the last couple hundred years. It sounds somewhat close minded to say we've found the perfect model. No, I think in at least the next century or so we'll find something to replace this model, which would be able to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty, but still not remove it altogether. |
07-15-2009, 11:07 PM | #54 | |
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Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects
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