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Old 03-11-2016, 01:00 AM   #1
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Default TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

Ok so I really hoped I wouldn't have to make a thread like this, but to fill in those who have remained unaware, there was cheating in this previous game, which occurred between Hakulyte and rzr talking about their roles and their actions over Skype to some extent. Below are some logs that were provided by Haku towards the end of the game.

[2016-02-23 21:51:16] Jamie Quintin: I errr I have knowledge that I shouldn't have
[2016-02-23 21:51:26] Haku / Eman: I do too.
[2016-02-23 21:51:52] Jamie Quintin: from an IRL pov?
[2016-02-23 21:52:35] Jamie Quintin: I'm town like I've said, but I found something out I shouldn't have
[2016-02-23 21:52:58] Haku / Eman: like?
[2016-02-23 21:54:03] Jamie Quintin: I know at least one member of the rival faction
[2016-02-23 21:54:07] Jamie Quintin: Now your turn
[2016-02-23 21:54:24] Haku / Eman: I know who's the Medic and what happened last night.
[2016-02-23 21:54:59] Jamie Quintin: are you actual town?
[2016-02-23 21:55:04] Haku / Eman: yes.
[2016-02-23 21:55:09] Jamie Quintin: or are you SK/god father lol
[2016-02-23 21:55:18] Jamie Quintin: ahhh shit
[2016-02-23 21:55:22] Jamie Quintin: was zenith the medic?
[2016-02-23 21:55:25] Haku / Eman: no.
[2016-02-23 21:55:34] Jamie Quintin: I
[2016-02-23 21:55:35] Jamie Quintin: uhm
[2016-02-23 21:55:40] Jamie Quintin: seered you
[2016-02-23 21:55:41] Jamie Quintin: green
[2016-02-23 21:55:42] Jamie Quintin: n1
[2016-02-23 21:55:47] Jamie Quintin: xel green n0
[2016-02-23 21:55:54] Jamie Quintin: who's medic
[2016-02-23 21:55:59] Haku / Eman: xel got saved n0
[2016-02-23 21:56:04] Haku / Eman: by medic free save
[2016-02-23 21:56:21] Haku / Eman: vendetta got saved n1 by medic real save
[2016-02-23 21:56:33] Haku / Eman: vendetta should be dead.
[2016-02-23 21:56:46] Jamie Quintin: Greg share this on accident?
[2016-02-23 21:56:50] Haku / Eman: no.
[2016-02-23 21:56:54] Jamie Quintin: Also, Makilaz/Yosh is scum
[2016-02-23 21:57:01] Haku / Eman: no.
[2016-02-23 21:57:03] Jamie Quintin: guaranteed, not sure what type


[2016-02-23 23:41:17] Jamie Quintin: Why not yosh?
[2016-02-23 23:41:35] Haku / Eman: because you have one day to get him lynched the normal way.
[2016-02-23 23:41:55] Haku / Eman: but
[2016-02-23 23:42:01] Haku / Eman: you shouldn't be the one doing this
[2016-02-23 23:42:19] Haku / Eman: honestly im not sure why you aren't getting replaced out yourself
[2016-02-23 23:42:36] Haku / Eman: because if you know about Makilaz, Makilaz should know that you know.
[2016-02-23 23:42:37] Haku / Eman: (?)
[2016-02-23 23:43:20] Jamie Quintin: I agree
[2016-02-23 23:43:38] Jamie Quintin: I think she pawned it off because I pretended not to notice
[2016-02-23 23:43:46] Jamie Quintin: but the hold is too deep since we're both in it now
[2016-02-23 23:43:55] Jamie Quintin: if one goes down, we're both temp banned lol
[2016-02-23 23:44:19] Jamie Quintin: I'm annoyed the scntill vote takes no traction


*this log is solely rzr talking to Haku*
right
so you gotta get thru today/tonight
just to take out Yosh
then coast if you want, but I think I noted some softs from you that I could use to defend you as a PR
so like, maybe this
live tn, kill yosh
go in tmrw, claim medic, if we're lucky a wolf will counter claim and we'll kill you both I guess
if not, you most likely live tomorrow and get wolved the next night, but as a normal VT anyway
I feel confident in analyzingt Yosh's interactions
I'll work on pocketing him
you work on avoiding him and staying alive


These are a few logs that I think very clearly implicate both parties, and anyone who thinks that this kind of behavior is anywhere close to acceptable in a game without OOTC is not in touch with reality. Yoshl and I talked about how long a ban length should be for both rzr and Haku, whether or not they deserve the same ban or not, etc etc, and that's part of why this thread is being made.

As some backstory, Haku was the one who fessed up to me, and provided me with the logs. I do believe that there is some amount of remorse Haku feels for their actions, but I also have to admit that there is a clear discrepancy regarding certain things Haku has said after coming to me, which I think a few others may be able to speak on as well. The reason for why Haku cheated is something that has remained utterly inconsistent, and I think that Haku has attempted to downplay their involvement in the matter, and has basically outright lied to persons who were talking to them about the matter. So, this part is kind of weird. I am unsure how much Haku being new to TWG played into this, but I think Haku knew what they were doing to some extent, and has said this to me as well as Yoshl, although contradicting it later.

Rzr is someone who, unlike Haku, I am 100% certain knew what they were doing was very much against the rules. I have no doubt in my mind that this was malicious. He will most likely give a defense of himself, which is part of why this thread is being made as well, so I won't speak too much to this, because I think its a bit simpler here. He believes he is less guilty than Haku is, at the very least, so that's something that needs to be talked about. Yoshl suggested banning both of them equally, and for the remainder of 2016, which I like, but I would like to hear what you all have to think about this. I don't think I support a permaban in either case, but consider it realistic.

This is not the entire reason behind why the thread is being made, there are a few other things that can be sorted out here as well.

Ben has been far too inactive in games he has signed up for. He almost always (but not always) has a negative impact on games by signing up for them and going inactive, forcing either a replacement, lynch or modkill on his slot. I think that this warrants a ban, as does Yoshl. 5 games is what I was thinking here.

Zenith replaced out in an awkward time for mostly emotional reasons (though he did cite irl reasons as well) and left his wolf team in an incredibly awkward position (which was recovered about as well as it possibly could've been, and still managed to have a clearly negative impact on the game). I think that this is probably the trickiest thing being addressed here, but I do think it warrants a ban because signing up for a game is essentially declaring that you're going to be able to put up with the emotional aspect of the game, which he was unable to do. I think that it is the most forgivable of the actions that took place, something like 2-3 games is what I was thinking here.

There is no current basis for bans for those who replace out of games, I was thinking in the meantime just a 1-game ban for all players who replace out until the system Yoshl is working on is put in place.

Lastly, there was a LOT of info that got to living players (in particular rzr and Haku) that should not have. Talking to players who are living about the game, especially in a game without cardflipping, outside of the thread is never ok. Talking to them privately is, obviously, fine, but there are certain limitations. Sometimes, something just slips out, I get it, it even happened to me recently when I was talking to Haku after I died in the Ace Attorney game (I forgot he was a replacement).

What is important, and something I cannot stress enough is, if this happens, TELL THE GAME MODERATOR. Always. No exceptions. If you obtain OGI, the onus is on you, the player, to go to the moderator and explain what happened, so that they may properly address it. They may modkill you, they may replace you, they may make a player illegitimate to replace into the game. This is all bad, but continuing to play the game as if nothing happened is far worse. No one, and I mean no one, is capable of actually not letting the OGI change their gameplay.

I understand that sometimes when you're talking to another player, even not necessarily about the game, sometimes, things slip out. It happens. Its forgivable. But when it does, you need to tell the mod.

I think it pretty much covers everything. I hope that this gets everything squared away. I, for one, am a HUGE fan of how Manti handled these kinds of things, and I think this is (with more words obviously) what he would've done.
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Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

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Old 03-11-2016, 01:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

(nvm)

I agree.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:04 AM   #3
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

bans don't seem to work
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

red blaster is a case otherwise

I'm honestly not 100% sure if we have the whole entire picture here as well, there's certain random spots missing. Those details aren't really important in the general idea of this thread, other than to either verify or go against what haku and rzr have said (which both contradict each other at places)

however I feel like it may be nice if people could provide information that they have to clear up the air.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:07 AM   #5
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

Red Blaster got banned, and now actually plays, so yeah sure
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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Zenith replaced out in an awkward time for mostly emotional reasons (though he did cite irl reasons as well) and left his wolf team in an incredibly awkward position (which was recovered about as well as it possibly could've been, and still managed to have a clearly negative impact on the game). I think that this is probably the trickiest thing being addressed here, but I do think it warrants a ban because signing up for a game is essentially declaring that you're going to be able to put up with the emotional aspect of the game, which he was unable to do. I think that it is the most forgivable of the actions that took place, something like 2-3 games is what I was thinking here.
Though this happens in the majority of the games he's played in, so idk
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:10 AM   #7
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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Originally Posted by choof View Post
bans don't seem to work
I agree but I have no better ideas that are practical
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Originally Posted by Vendetta21 View Post
Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

If roundbox flips town, look at his reads
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

Bah, I'm just salty this was the one time Zenith raged and was actually the wolf and not a human being angry that he was being read wolf again.

Baaaaaaah... I still wish not to play with him again though. That's just dirty

As for the cheaters. From what I garnered about it. rzr was the person to first initiate this and just roll with it for the entirety of the game. I think Haku not stopping rzr and or going to you is pretty compelling to say that both should at least get an extended period of timeouts anyways. wonder if rzr will say anything regarding this.

And for inactives... what system is being made if I may ask? Dohoho
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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bans don't seem to work
Like, I get the fact that banning Ben won't stop him from signing up later and probably still being inactive, because bans don't change anything about the fact that he can't find the time to post all that often, but I still feel like it needs to be addressed so ??????
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Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

If roundbox flips town, look at his reads
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

Maybe it's the "nice" person in me, but I think Haku just got thrown in to something without him realizing it was somehow bad (but knew it was bad???)

I don't know his mindset, and his posts in postgame don't really help him either.

I mean...

He could've just said nothing, and no one would probably be the wiser.

Such an odd case this is
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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red blaster is a case otherwise
red blaster is a case but it's a totally unrelated case that isn't worth bringing up
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:16 AM   #12
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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I think Haku not stopping rzr and or going to you is pretty compelling to say that both should at least get an extended period of timeouts anyways.
How long is an extended period to you? Its part of why the thread is here.

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And for inactives... what system is being made if I may ask? Dohoho
Yoshl knows more than I, but its a kind of points system aorn. It hasn't been developed very much, but it takes a bit from the previous system and attempts to improve on what was wrong with it (IE, actually stops people from signing up for games for a different period of time based on how often they replace out or get modkilled for inactivity and such).
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Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

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Old 03-11-2016, 01:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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Maybe it's the "nice" person in me, but I think Haku just got thrown in to something without him realizing it was somehow bad (but knew it was bad???)

I don't know his mindset, and his posts in postgame don't really help him either.

I mean...

He could've just said nothing, and no one would probably be the wiser.

Such an odd case this is
[12:07:22 PM] Haku / Eman: trust me, I know how much I ruined the game, but there's other reasons as to why I did what I did.
[12:07:29 PM | Edited 12:07:24 PM] Haku / Eman: I hope it makes the future games more fair.
[12:07:57 PM] Haku / Eman: it's also forcing the hosts to make a thread about OoT and clarifying stuff.
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Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

If roundbox flips town, look at his reads
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

Oh I don't know, for something so blatant like this, probably, um... well... I really don't know if 10 months is reasonable. Maybe half a year? That's what I would do. We're not exactly a big TWG family y'know
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:19 AM   #15
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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red blaster is a case but it's a totally unrelated case that isn't worth bringing up
I don't understand why its not worth bringing up its the only time someone has ever been perma'd from FFRTWG since the site went back up (lol robertsona's lil bro is still perma'd I think).

His posting and gameplay since the ban was revoked is clearly much better and tbh it gives me the smallest amount of faith in the system.
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Did you get a chance to kill that deadbeat sonuvabitch boyfriend of danceguys', "sunfan"? i hate that fucker. he's a stupid head. i'm way smarter and funnier and prettier and richer and more sensitive than him, and like i can get drunk and still hold complex logical conversations n shit and i bet that fucker cant.
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Originally Posted by Litodude View Post
i'm on page55, is this seriously how mafia games are played in other forums? is this what's been going on here over the years?

0 math games, all just pure rando dumbness.
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Originally Posted by XelNya View Post
I'd suck a dick in a dark, dark alley.

If roundbox flips town, look at his reads
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:22 AM   #16
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Like, I get the fact that banning Ben won't stop him from signing up later and probably still being inactive, because bans don't change anything about the fact that he can't find the time to post all that often, but I still feel like it needs to be addressed so ??????
well
I think bans would work if they were substantial bans. 1 game bans aren't that big of a deal; we have fast paced games and if a game lasts for a week, that's almost trivial

instead of handing out game bans, hand out timed bans. instead of a 1-game ban, make it a 1 month ban.
you could also flag a person's account so they're unable to view the twg subforum while logged in
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

You mean like make TWG a hidden subforum like it was a long time ago (I think?)
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All in all I would say that Charu not only won this game, his play made me reconsider how I play it.
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:26 AM   #18
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I don't understand why its not worth bringing up its the only time someone has ever been perma'd from FFRTWG since the site went back up (lol robertsona's lil bro is still perma'd I think).

His posting and gameplay since the ban was revoked is clearly much better and tbh it gives me the smallest amount of faith in the system.
it's not worth bringing up because his perma was revoked
if a player has the chance of getting a ban revoked, then make it a longer ban and just cut it short later on
perma bans don't hold any weight. red blaster's play improved more from the twg awards where he got shit on, and he's on very thin ice since his ban was revoked. he obviously enjoys playing the game so it makes sense that his play would reflect that

so if people are going to blatantly break very serious rules, we should have a very serious punishment.

I don't think haku should be perma-banned, maybe a 3 month ban or something. rzr could probably be perma'd
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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Originally Posted by Charu View Post
You mean like make TWG a hidden subforum like it was a long time ago (I think?)
nah, don't make it hidden. keep it public but iirc, you can disable subforums on someone's account. obviously they can circumvent this by logging out, but if you spend time on the site, logging out just to view a certain subforum is really annoying
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Old 03-11-2016, 01:31 AM   #20
storn42
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Default Re: TWG CXLIX Infractions and general OOTC stuff

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You mean like make TWG a hidden subforum like it was a long time ago (I think?)
the problem with a hidden TWG forum is that it makes it much more of a closed off section of the forum. we want more people coming in and trying out TWG and expanding our player list. this works against us more than it would actually punish players.
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