Old 08-20-2020, 09:54 AM   #1
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Default Batch Submission Updates

Hello everyone!

As some of you have already noticed there have been some major changes to our batch submission area. Velocity basically took my list of stuff and made my dreams come true, haha.

Our old way of doing things has become pretty outdated and was hard to manage with 3 separate emails and tons of threads it was easy to get things mixed up. Now everything is all centralized into the batch submission area. You also can now easily see everything that's in queue to be released (unless it's from a private batch). Yes, I said private batches, we do have the ability to make it so you cannot see submissions to a batch that are not your own in order to keep some surprise when it comes to certain events. You'll always be able to see and edit your own submissions though.
Another awesome addition is when you submit your file there are now checkboxes that allow you to indicate if you'd like it to be a token, secret, or purchased file and whether you're okay with your file being held for future events. That will help me build up files for the OT's a lot faster, I was always weary about holding because I didn't want to upset anyone by holding a file for an extended period.

We also no longer need to use threads at all for the judgement of batches, everything will now be done right in the batch submission area. I can assign judges sets right within it, they can leave their notes and ratings on the file in the system, and you'll get a notification any time you get a status change on your file.

Lots of awesome stuff all around and I can't thank Velo enough for making it possible. I think I covered everything but if you have any questions about the new system please feel free to drop them in the thread here or reach out to me on discord
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:22 AM   #2
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

Thanks owlman
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

thanks, and conditional queues are still 4 weeks from submission of judge date right? it would be nice to receive a private message from the system saying "your file was judged" or something
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Old 08-20-2020, 03:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

oh cool! i like how i'll be able to get a notification too. could there also be a list of files which havent been accepted?

btw about private files, i don't want to waste my time stepping a file that's already been stepped for ffr, which is why i always check the batch before starting on a file. wouldn't this be a problem?
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Old 08-20-2020, 06:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

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Originally Posted by mi40 View Post
thanks, and conditional queues are still 4 weeks from submission of judge date right? it would be nice to receive a private message from the system saying "your file was judged" or something


From the work I've seen Velocity do, you should now receive updates to judge scores in the top right of the website next to your username whenever the score (e.g. the [9.5/10]) is updated in the batch for a song, or whenever the status (e.g. from unjudged to accepted or conditional queue, etc.) of a song is updated.

It will be in the same location as notifications for when you receive a DM, a thumbs up or thumbs down on your profile, a profile comment, etc.

And yes, as far as I'm still aware, the status quo on time for conditional queue fixes is still 4 weeks. Only time I think it's been circumvented is when it's needed for immediate release to cover a spot in a tournament or similar situation.

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oh cool! i like how i'll be able to get a notification too. could there also be a list of files which havent been accepted?

btw about private files, i don't want to waste my time stepping a file that's already been stepped for ffr, which is why i always check the batch before starting on a file. wouldn't this be a problem?
There's never a guarantee that the same file made by another author will get in, and the submission rules regarding same-song submissions that are around the same difficulty have pretty much been abolished. Also, I'm pretty sure that private batches will only be used in situations where displaying those submissions would affect something like a tournament. It's not going to be a regular practice to privatize open batches.
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Old 08-20-2020, 07:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

Thank you, Velocity!
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

woohoo i just saw the star, that's pretty neat
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Old 08-20-2020, 08:25 PM   #8
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Old 08-21-2020, 01:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

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Originally Posted by klimtkiller View Post
oh cool! i like how i'll be able to get a notification too. could there also be a list of files which havent been accepted?

btw about private files, i don't want to waste my time stepping a file that's already been stepped for ffr, which is why i always check the batch before starting on a file. wouldn't this be a problem?
I stated this in the other thread as well, when we were on the email system you guys had NO idea what was being submitted. So it seems like a pretty silly argument to have. We also have done private and internal batches for the OT every year without any issue.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:51 AM   #10
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I stated this in the other thread as well, when we were on the email system you guys had NO idea what was being submitted.
It used to be that the pool of steppers who could actually get things into FFR was so small I could just ask what people were stepping or post on the forums that I was stepping a certain song and that alone would make me reasonably sure there would be no conflicts. For example to this day I have the folder of music that bmah sent me that he was holding for stepping and I don't touch anything that's in there, at least not without telling him.

As the judging in FFR has gotten less strict and the number of steppers submitting has grown, I've found the odds of collisions has grown a lot - I still don't feel great about what happened with Aggressor, for example - and with that in mind I find being able to see everything is nice. More than a few times with the old Batch Search Engine, I heard a song that I was considering stepping then searched it only to find there was already a submission for it, and each time that happened I appreciated that functionality stopped me from investing hours into something that was already envisioned by someone else.
Yes there are solutions like adding in multiple difficulty tags or [Another] but even then I personally prefer not to step on anyone else's toes, and I imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:54 AM   #11
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

Okay well then if it's such an issue then I'll abolish the all new song OTs and only use in game files going forward.
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:00 AM   #12
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It used to be that the pool of steppers who could actually get things into FFR was so small I could just ask what people were stepping or post on the forums that I was stepping a certain song and that alone would make me reasonably sure there would be no conflicts. For example to this day I have the folder of music that bmah sent me that he was holding for stepping and I don't touch anything that's in there, at least not without telling him.

As the judging in FFR has gotten less strict and the number of steppers submitting has grown, I've found the odds of collisions has grown a lot - I still don't feel great about what happened with Aggressor, for example - and with that in mind I find being able to see everything is nice. More than a few times with the old Batch Search Engine, I heard a song that I was considering stepping then searched it only to find there was already a submission for it, and each time that happened I appreciated that functionality stopped me from investing hours into something that was already envisioned by someone else.
Yes there are solutions like adding in multiple difficulty tags or [Another] but even then I personally prefer not to step on anyone else's toes, and I imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I would also point out that the pool of suitable music for FFR has grown a lot. We no longer have 4 files of the newest cornandbeans song in one batch or a 3-way "race" to get a Trisection v2 in queue. We have permission from -hundreds- of artists and Creative Commons licensing allows for countless more.

I don't speak from recent experience, but I think that nowadays you'd either have to step "VSRG meta" songs, or tread on someone's niche like :VS: to risk encountering this problem. But with so much music to choose from, shouldn't this conflict be getting more unlikely?
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:02 AM   #13
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I would also point out that the pool of suitable music for FFR has grown a lot. We no longer have 4 files of the newest cornandbeans song in one batch or a 3-way "race" to get a Trisection v2 in queue. We have permission from -hundreds- of artists and Creative Commons licensing allows for countless more.

I don't speak from recent experience, but I think that nowadays you'd either have to step "VSRG meta" songs, or tread on someone's niche like :VS: to risk encountering this problem. But with so much music to choose from, shouldn't this conflict be getting more unlikely?
I was going to point this out myself, but I'm just so over arguing with everyone at this point. So if people are so anti anything being private I just won't run any events that needs private batches anymore. It is what it is.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:01 AM   #14
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I was going to point this out myself, but I'm just so over arguing with everyone at this point. So if people are so anti anything being private I just won't run any events that needs private batches anymore. It is what it is.
I don't think anyone's trying to be argumentative here...people are merely stating a concern. no one wants to spend the time to step a file only to find out it's rejected because the same song is already in queue. it's not like it's a really big issue. one solution could be for there to be a search function in the batch; when you search for a song, it tells you whether or not it's been sent by another user.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:42 AM   #15
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I don't think anyone's trying to be argumentative here...people are merely stating a concern. no one wants to spend the time to step a file only to find out it's rejected because the same song is already in queue. it's not like it's a really big issue. one solution could be for there to be a search function in the batch; when you search for a song, it tells you whether or not it's been sent by another user.
Kind of ruins the feature of private batches, as well as numerous issues on that, such as unexpected spelling errors, or people bruteforcing Official Tournament batch song names to figure out submitted content which defeats the purpose of it.

Also kinda ignored my post from the other thread that is parallel in discussion with this one.

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oh cool! i like how i'll be able to get a notification too. could there also be a list of files which havent been accepted?

btw about private files, i don't want to waste my time stepping a file that's already been stepped for ffr, which is why i always check the batch before starting on a file. wouldn't this be a problem?
There's never a guarantee that the same file made by another author will get in, and the submission rules regarding same-song submissions that are around the same difficulty have pretty much been abolished. Also, I'm pretty sure that private batches will only be used in situations where displaying those submissions would affect something like a tournament. It's not going to be a regular practice to privatize open batches.
edit: whoops, turns out I am in said thread. Huh. Funny how discussion on a topic blends like that.

Also, there's nothing stopping discussion of people freely talking about what they submitted to batches, even if they are privatized. We have a pretty massive Official Discord that is talkative in all times of the day, and is no shortage of a hub on discussions in all things simfiling. I can understand some level of concern in the possibility of accidentally making charts for the same song under the same relative difficulty, yet the private batch update was only intended for usage where it's needed, and not for blanket prevention of people viewing batch, which is where the argument feels like it's stemming from.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

Would it be too drastic of a compromise to allow people to ask a judge if a song they want to step is already in a private queue on a case-by-case basis? The only information needed would be the song title and possibly the song artist. With the potential of overlap in stepping files being more uncommon because of our diverse selection in songs, the same logic can also apply to the chance of a file in the private queue being exposed if we're allowed the chance to confirm.

I think the peace of mind would go a long way if people knew they had that option. I'm sure a lot of step artists have a different mentality towards stepping a fresh song for FFR vs a different take on an existing song in the game. In my case, even if a file I made ended up being the same if it were a V2/[Another] compared to a first release, I would rather put the time towards a different file. Not to sound as if I don't appreciate alternate takes on stepfiles in game, I just generally have more interest in contributing new songs to the game than more stepfiles.

As far as the surprise aspect of new files for tournaments, I can only speak for myself as someone who wouldn't be bothered by knowing a song name beforehand. If there was a list of songs and someone said, "Some of these might be in the next official tournament." I would actually see a potential of more hype because hearing the song would allow me to speculate on what kind of difficulty, division, etc it would be for and therefore make me pay more attention for its release. I feel that a big part of the tournament is the fact that it's a new stepfile for everyone. As long as people aren't being exposed to the stepfile itself beforehand, I don't see the system becoming less adequate.

I don't think anyone wants to remove the private queue entirely, but it's worth exploring a middle ground here.

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Old 08-21-2020, 12:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

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Would it be too drastic of a compromise to allow people to ask a judge if a song they want to step is already in a private queue on a case-by-case basis? The only information needed would be the song title and possibly the song artist. With the potential of overlap in stepping files being more uncommon because of our diverse selection in songs, the same logic can also apply to the chance of a file in the private queue being exposed if we're allowed the chance to confirm.

I think the peace of mind would go a long way if people knew they had that option. I'm sure a lot of step artists have a different mentality towards stepping a fresh song for FFR vs a different take on an existing song in the game. In my case, even if a file I made ended up being the same if it were a V2/[Another] compared to a first release, I would rather put the time towards a different file. Not to sound as if I don't appreciate alternate takes on stepfiles in game, I just generally have more interest in contributing new songs to the game than more stepfiles.

As far as the surprise aspect of new files for tournaments, I can only speak for myself as someone who wouldn't be bothered by knowing a song name beforehand. If there was a list of songs and someone said, "Some of these might be in the next official tournament." I would actually see a potential of more hype because hearing the song would allow me to speculate on what kind of difficulty, division, etc it would be for and therefore make me pay more attention for its release. I feel that a big part of the tournament is the fact that it's a new stepfile for everyone. As long as people aren't being exposed to the stepfile itself beforehand, I don't see the system becoming less adequate.

I don't think anyone wants to remove the private queue entirely, but it's worth exploring a middle ground here.
I don't see how it's not already a middle ground that the private batches are for specific events, everything else is public. There's more info now than ever and I'm going to keep saying that. None of you guys knew what was being send to the emails in batches of old, it seems incredibly silly to be upset that we may privatize one or two batches in a year for event purposes.
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Old 08-21-2020, 01:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

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It used to be that the pool of steppers who could actually get things into FFR was so small I could just ask what people were stepping or post on the forums that I was stepping a certain song and that alone would make me reasonably sure there would be no conflicts. For example to this day I have the folder of music that bmah sent me that he was holding for stepping and I don't touch anything that's in there, at least not without telling him.
I'm going to echo trumaestro's sentiments in response to the first bolded point here:

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I would also point out that the pool of suitable music for FFR has grown a lot. We no longer have 4 files of the newest cornandbeans song in one batch or a 3-way "race" to get a Trisection v2 in queue. We have permission from -hundreds- of artists and Creative Commons licensing allows for countless more.

I don't speak from recent experience, but I think that nowadays you'd either have to step "VSRG meta" songs, or tread on someone's niche like :VS: to risk encountering this problem. But with so much music to choose from, shouldn't this conflict be getting more unlikely?
Additionally, I'd like to add that having some ability to see someone charting a file in question is not much of a solution given the history of how batches grow and how users respond to submission cutoffs. The Official Tournament batch is a fantastic example - the number of files in the batch nearly doubled in a one week period before the batch's closure, on a batch that was open at the start of January. This alone showcases the fact that "collisions" would not be prevented because users will commit to making a file last minute, put the effort into making the file, then submit -- users are not going to throw away their last minute efforts to put something in game.

We're also open to accepting multiple versions of a chart that are within reasonably close difficulty, so this is less of an issue than people realize.

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As the judging in FFR has gotten less strict and the number of steppers submitting has grown, I've found the odds of collisions has grown a lot - I still don't feel great about what happened with Aggressor, for example - and with that in mind I find being able to see everything is nice. More than a few times with the old Batch Search Engine, I heard a song that I was considering stepping then searched it only to find there was already a submission for it, and each time that happened I appreciated that functionality stopped me from investing hours into something that was already envisioned by someone else.
Yes there are solutions like adding in multiple difficulty tags or [Another] but even then I personally prefer not to step on anyone else's toes, and I imagine I'm not the only one who feels that way.
The situation that happened with Aggressor was absolutely under no circumstance a collision in the way that everyone is concerned about: DarkZtar's chart for Aggressor very literally got lost within the batch system, likely as a result of changeovers in management/transitioning. There have also been numerous files that have gotten lost in this same way -- Koi no Subou Flag was one, The Day The Sun Exploded was another. This was as a result of poor management on my part back when I was handling the responsibilities of game management. Things like this literally can't happen now.

It bears repeating that any collisions that could have occurred only would have occurred in literally any other system. Public submission threads only occurred when enough files had been packaged up to create a batch, and the utilization of multiple emails both predated and coexisted with the public system -- meaning there were plenty of other opportunities for collisions that could have existed, but no one mentioned it. To put simply, users have always accepted the risk.


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I don't think anyone's trying to be argumentative here...people are merely stating a concern. no one wants to spend the time to step a file only to find out it's rejected because the same song is already in queue. it's not like it's a really big issue. one solution could be for there to be a search function in the batch; when you search for a song, it tells you whether or not it's been sent by another user.
As stated earlier, files will not simply be rejected simply because the same song is queue. In situations where two charts are basically the same interpretation, it is absolutely sensible to simply pick the one that is higher quality in the similar interpretation. Anything beyond that is risk that had existed in the past that users accepted in the process of submitting files.

Adding a search function won't solve issues, particularly if users submit files where the metadata is incorrect (this wouldn't be done maliciously, it's a common accident). While not the most relevant given that one was a full version and the other was a cut, the Chaos Time songs were a good showcasing of this -- one of the files submitted had proper metadata, and the other did not, meaning neither of these users would have been able to spot one another's file being in a batch.

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Would it be too drastic of a compromise to allow people to ask a judge if a song they want to step is already in a private queue on a case-by-case basis? [...]
This has the potential to absolutely inundate game management with more than they need to deal with as it is. It shouldn't be their responsibility to have to check private batches over and over again because users have (historically unnecessary) concerns about it.

I'm finding it rather peculiar that people are bringing up some of these things now and not really appreciating the fact that this entire system has basically organized everything into a centralized position. The hyper fixation over seeing information that simply doesn't need to be seen, and historically -wasn't seen, is somewhat disheartening to both the development of the system and the ideas put together to make the process more streamlined, all in the name to gain information for no seemingly good reason (or at least, any reason that was ever available in the first place).

The benefits of the change to the system to keep content well organized without potentially exposing more than necessary far outweigh everyone needing to have access to things that traditionally they weren't able to see. The only thing this affects is tournament content - which is something that game management has wanted hidden for quite some time. It previously wasn't possible without having to aggravate logistics by doing things like sending people private messages for reviews on their charts -- but by posting things publicly, it was always exposed for people to see, especially when tournament-specific batches occurred.

Last edited by TC_Halogen; 08-21-2020 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 08-21-2020, 02:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

It seems there's some misinterpretation on concerns being expressed over the private queue with the batch system as a whole within this thread. The new batch system truly is wonderful and I've spoke in favor of it as a single entity. Due to how myself and others have looked at it, I had hoped that by expressing some possible alternatives we could see if the way it has been done isn't necessarily the best way.

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I don't see how it's not already a middle ground that the private batches are for specific events, everything else is public. There's more info now than ever and I'm going to keep saying that. None of you guys knew what was being send to the emails in batches of old, it seems incredibly silly to be upset that we may privatize one or two batches in a year for event purposes.
I've just been focusing on the private queue aspect. What I mean is a compromise between the two ends that have been talked about here. One end being our current system, the other being what a few of us have brought up in this thread; being able to know if there's a conflict within a private queue with what we'd like to step. An example of middle ground would be having the song title/artist not be private but everything else regarding the stepfile/stepfile artist would be.

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Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
This has the potential to absolutely inundate game management with more than they need to deal with as it is. It shouldn't be their responsibility to have to check private batches over and over again because users have (historically unnecessary) concerns about it.
Then in the interest of keeping it simple, I can just state my example above as a question. Would having the song title/artist not be private but the rest remain private be an idea to explore? Everyone knows what's on its way to the game but the gameplay aspect remains a surprise. Shouldn't song artists coming to the game be given as much publicity as often as we can and as soon as we can anyways?

Again, I highly approve of this new system overall. I don't mean for my questioning to mean it all becomes unappreciated. Just trying to throw in some new ideas!
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:25 PM   #20
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Default Re: Batch Submission Updates

Putting the song title/artist just defeats the purpose of privatizing the thing in the first place. I honestly don't think that having a private batch for the OT is a problem and I'm going to stick by it in this case. Every other batch you guys have every bit of information available to you. The only other time it would be used would be for a stepcon because those submission are anonymous but the songs are also assigned so, it's pretty irrelevant.
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