Old 02-16-2015, 11:23 PM   #41
PhantomPuppy
バカヤロー
FFR Veteran
 
PhantomPuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,552
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

might be a stupid question, but is it possible for a person to get demoted? like, if u fall below the rest in ur division, and ppl in the division below u get ahead of u? course im not planning on letting that happen lol, but just curious.
__________________

Psychoangel's One Div. Higher (D2-D3): 2nd
10th Official (D3): 13th
gstarfire's All Skill (D3): 1st
Zenith's Helping Hand (D3): 1st
DC's Team Extravaganza (D4): 5th
FG's Winter Vanilla (D4): 2nd
Portalbob's Round Robin (D4): 3rd
Deadly & Preggers' Bracket (D5): 17th
Squid & Puppy's Summer Vanilla (Host)
Badman's Bloody RNG (D5): 2nd
11th Official (D6): 11th
reuben_tate's Ramen Box Tourney (D6) - 4th
12th Official (D6): TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
you know what they say

under all the rust is really shiny... metal
PhantomPuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:27 PM   #42
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Retired StaffFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD7 Elite KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 28
Posts: 18,570
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy View Post
might be a stupid question, but is it possible for a person to get demoted? like, if u fall below the rest in ur division, and ppl in the division below u get ahead of u? course im not planning on letting that happen lol, but just curious.
There are hard skill ranking cutoffs to get into a division.

The only reason you would get demoted is one of two possible reasons, in my mind:

a.) a song that was one of your top four scores gets removed from the game, or

b.) a score on one of those four songs gets forcibly removed
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:29 PM   #43
Deidara837
For a New Beginning
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
Deidara837's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York, United States
Age: 23
Posts: 1,753
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

As it stands the division cutoffs are flat score based, and there's no way to decrease your score, so the answer as of right now would be no

If the cutoffs changed then there'd be potential for division dropping but that's probably not going to be considered for a while

Edit: I take too long to type but what I said is slightly different so I'm leaving it up asdf
__________________

_9th OT: D2 - 13th Place
10th OT: D5 - 45th Place
11th OT: D6 - 12th Place

EMG Rivalry | EMG Spreadsheet

Last edited by Deidara837; 02-16-2015 at 11:29 PM..
Deidara837 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:30 PM   #44
PhantomPuppy
バカヤロー
FFR Veteran
 
PhantomPuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,552
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

ah ok, thanks you two for clearin that up.
__________________

Psychoangel's One Div. Higher (D2-D3): 2nd
10th Official (D3): 13th
gstarfire's All Skill (D3): 1st
Zenith's Helping Hand (D3): 1st
DC's Team Extravaganza (D4): 5th
FG's Winter Vanilla (D4): 2nd
Portalbob's Round Robin (D4): 3rd
Deadly & Preggers' Bracket (D5): 17th
Squid & Puppy's Summer Vanilla (Host)
Badman's Bloody RNG (D5): 2nd
11th Official (D6): 11th
reuben_tate's Ramen Box Tourney (D6) - 4th
12th Official (D6): TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
you know what they say

under all the rust is really shiny... metal
PhantomPuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:36 PM   #45
PrawnSkunk
Administrator
Site Administrator
AdministratorDeveloperFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
PrawnSkunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Age: 24
Posts: 3,735
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomPuppy View Post
might be a stupid question, but is it possible for a person to get demoted? like, if u fall below the rest in ur division, and ppl in the division below u get ahead of u? course im not planning on letting that happen lol, but just curious.
In addition to Halogen's response, since division boundaries are hard, you could be "demoted" if you are sitting at the bottom of a skill bracket and the boundaries are readjusted. It is also possible for your skill rating to be negatively affected if the ranking formula changes.
PrawnSkunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:47 PM   #46
PhantomPuppy
バカヤロー
FFR Veteran
 
PhantomPuppy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,552
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnSkunk View Post
In addition to Halogen's response, since division boundaries are hard, you could be "demoted" if you are sitting at the bottom of a skill bracket and the boundaries are readjusted. It is also possible for your skill rating to be negatively affected if the ranking formula changes.
hmmm im pretty borderline. looks like i gotta go get better scores to make sure that doesnt happen when the formula changes
__________________

Psychoangel's One Div. Higher (D2-D3): 2nd
10th Official (D3): 13th
gstarfire's All Skill (D3): 1st
Zenith's Helping Hand (D3): 1st
DC's Team Extravaganza (D4): 5th
FG's Winter Vanilla (D4): 2nd
Portalbob's Round Robin (D4): 3rd
Deadly & Preggers' Bracket (D5): 17th
Squid & Puppy's Summer Vanilla (Host)
Badman's Bloody RNG (D5): 2nd
11th Official (D6): 11th
reuben_tate's Ramen Box Tourney (D6) - 4th
12th Official (D6): TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
you know what they say

under all the rust is really shiny... metal
PhantomPuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2015, 11:51 PM   #47
TC_Halogen
Rhythm game specialist.
Retired StaffFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Music ProducerD7 Elite KeysmasherFFR Veteran
 
TC_Halogen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bel Air, Maryland
Age: 28
Posts: 18,570
Send a message via AIM to TC_Halogen Send a message via Skype™ to TC_Halogen
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

so, another thing that I have thought of:

This system needs another level of scaling for AAA equivalence -- particularly as the difficulty goes up. It goes without saying that a person getting mid-20s good count on something 95+ deserves more than a FEO/FMO equivalent. Devil's advocate because yes, they likely could AAA a song in that difficulty easily, but for the sake of balance...
TC_Halogen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 12:04 AM   #48
Guest15937
One-handed elite
FFR Veteran
 
Guest15937's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,464
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
so, another thing that I have thought of:

This system needs another level of scaling for AAA equivalence -- particularly as the difficulty goes up. It goes without saying that a person getting mid-20s good count on something 95+ deserves more than a FEO/FMO equivalent. Devil's advocate because yes, they likely could AAA a song in that difficulty easily, but for the sake of balance...
Yeah, I was about to bring this up...I don't really see how a 30g score is at the 0% mark when you need serious skill to get a 30g score on very difficult songs.
__________________
The renegade has betrayed me.
Guest15937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 12:50 AM   #49
PrawnSkunk
Administrator
Site Administrator
AdministratorDeveloperFFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
PrawnSkunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Age: 24
Posts: 3,735
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guest15937 View Post
Yeah, I was about to bring this up...I don't really see how a 30g score is at the 0% mark when you need serious skill to get a 30g score on very difficult songs.
This design choice was due to the lack of reliable data. The polynomial represented in the OP was carefully crafted using a wealth of community knowledge of how scores are relative to eachother linearly across all difficulties. That abundance of information becomes unpredictable when entering 30-40+ good-count territory (and is partially influence by educative mashing and pattern cheating). In order to modify the formula to adapt to this model, we would have to first collect data of impressive high good-count scores, and compare that data to the player's immediate actual skill. With the skill rating system, we will have the capacity to do something like this. With a concerted effort, we could foreseeable accurately weigh scores above 27g, but their impact would likely be negligible to the influence of SDG and teens scores.

Simply ignoring all songs with a good count of 28 or greater is not a solution, and this is something I want to actively work towards solving.
PrawnSkunk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 01:22 AM   #50
justin_ator
Fuck your lemons
FFR Veteran
 
justin_ator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 7,367
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

You all did some badass work on this, nice job.
__________________
justin_ator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 01:26 AM   #51
25thhour
I like max
FFR Veteran
 
25thhour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Vancouver/Burnaby/East Van
Age: 25
Posts: 2,887
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Yay Max snap, come visit us from the dark alcoves of Langley Township. We miss you.

but srsly wow, amazing job on this
__________________
r bae adam bae max bae bridget bae claudia bae trevor bae adam2 bae mayo bae keith bae
25thhour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 01:32 AM   #52
ItsOnlyDanO
Stuck in the past
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
ItsOnlyDanO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Age: 23
Posts: 1,139
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

I swear there are a bunch of people who are considered D7 who are now in D6 according to the update

oh well
__________________
Ghosts appear and fade away.......
ItsOnlyDanO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 02:35 AM   #53
reuben_tate
Kawaii Desu Ne?
Sectional ModeratorFFR Veteran
 
reuben_tate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Kawaiian Island~
Age: 26
Posts: 4,118
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

That polynomial approximation =3

Anyways, I just wanted to bring up one point made in the OP. It says that it's impossible to decrease your skill rating. However, isn't this still possible considering that scores are still being recorded using combo scoring and this measure of skill uses raw scoring? If someone "beats" their previous score with a better combo score but with worse PA, wouldn't their skill rating drop as a result?

Otherwise, I think this project is off to a great start and it appears to have relatively accurate results! Good job to all of those involved!
__________________
AMA: http://ask.fm/benguino

Happening now! Click to join!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenner View Post
(^)> peck peck says the heels
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xx{Midnight}xX
And god made ben, and realized he was doomed to miss. And said it was good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakvvv666
awww :< crushing my dreams; was looking foward to you attempting to shoot yourself point blank and missing
reuben_tate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 02:37 AM   #54
justin_ator
Fuck your lemons
FFR Veteran
 
justin_ator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 7,367
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

I really think this should be coupled with a switch to Raw scoring on all stats....
__________________
justin_ator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 03:08 AM   #55
dabomb2223
FFR Veteran
FFR Veteran
 
dabomb2223's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 104
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Yo just wanted to pop in and say how sweet this is. I've been off and on this site for like 8 years now(?) and stuff like this definitely makes me want to keep coming back. It's sweet to see FFR improving and while I haven't taken part of any tournaments or anything, I now have Tier Points (what, I'm not good?) and I'm considered Division 2 (again with the bad thing.) So I think all in all this is a dang sweet update.
__________________
dabomb2223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 04:24 AM   #56
MinaciousGrace
FFR Player
D7 Elite Keysmasher
 
MinaciousGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nima
Posts: 4,279
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

hello if i may sugest something i would like the coloring of the me and my clan to be changed aweay from snail entrail green to something else
__________________
sometimes stepmania
MinaciousGrace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 06:04 AM   #57
kmay
Don't forget me
FFR Veteran
 
kmay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Age: 27
Posts: 6,314
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

so to move up the rankings you actually have to beat your top 4 scores.


now would 2 goods on a 74 be better than say 12 goods on a 78? i'm not about to do all this math lol



or is there a way to see your 4 best scores?
__________________



Last edited by kmay; 02-17-2015 at 06:09 AM..
kmay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 06:45 AM   #58
DDRNGGin
FFR Player
 
DDRNGGin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Murfreesboro, Tennessee
Age: 21
Posts: 471
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

This new leaderboard system is well-developed; although, the FFR rank on profiles are not being reflected by the recent system update.
Example: My current FFR rank is 1,586; however, my profile says the FFR rank is 5,274.
If someone can look into the matter, I would greatly appreciate it.
__________________
DDRNGGin's New Stats Information

Playstyle: Index

Current Level / Division: Level 73 (Division 5)

Highest AAA/PFC: Flight of the Bumblebee (Difficulty 80)

Highest Blackflag: AIM Anthem (Difficulty 76)

Highest SDG: Choprite [3-0-0-1] (Difficulty 70)

Highest FC (Non-mashed): BB Revenge [14-1-0-3] (Difficulty 80)

Last edited by DDRNGGin; 02-17-2015 at 06:46 AM..
DDRNGGin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 08:39 AM   #59
Zapmeister
FFR Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England
Posts: 465
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

ok this seems like a brilliant idea but can someone explain heuristically why a score of 20 goods is supposedly that much better than a score of 28 goods or even 24 goods, and also why four scores are supposedly sufficient to determine a player's skill level when they could all be weighted towards the same set of patterns (like aim anthem, club, largiloqu-ican'tspellthisthing are all jack-heavy songs)

also your system assumes that the difficulty scale is multiplicative. i mean like if you have 2 people and one of them can comfortably aaa 30's and the other one can aaa 60's and you get the first person to play a 40 and the second person to play an 80 then they'll get roughly the same score. i'm not 100% convinced on this bit but that's just my impression so feel free to convince me otherwise.

sorry if i come across as overly critical, i really like the idea of sorting out ffr division placements once and for all, i'd just like more...... transparency

Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen View Post
There are hard skill ranking cutoffs to get into a division.

The only reason you would get demoted is one of two possible reasons, in my mind:

a.) a song that was one of your top four scores gets removed from the game, or

b.) a score on one of those four songs gets forcibly removed
you forgot when someone lowers the difficulty rating of one of those four songs (as well as reuben_tate's raw scoring point, but that's probably a marginal case)
__________________

Theorem: If you have a large enough number of monkeys, and a large enough number of computer keyboards, one of them will sight-read AAA death piano on stealth. And the ffr community will forever worship it. Proof Example

ask me anything here

mashed FCs: 329

r1: 5
r2: 4
r3: 6
r4: 8
r5: 3
r6: 5
r7: 15
final position: 4th
Zapmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2015, 09:00 AM   #60
Deidara837
For a New Beginning
FFR Simfile AuthorFFR Veteran
 
Deidara837's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New York, United States
Age: 23
Posts: 1,753
Default Re: Skill Rating & Leaderboards Discussion [Updated Feb 16]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deidara837 View Post
Wait does this mean my Einstein-Rosen Bridge score is actually recognized, even with the miss? (5-0-1-6) Because currently my levelranks show 9-0-1-3
So I guess that's a no
__________________

_9th OT: D2 - 13th Place
10th OT: D5 - 45th Place
11th OT: D6 - 12th Place

EMG Rivalry | EMG Spreadsheet
Deidara837 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution