TWG XCI: Waned Lichens

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Syhto

quick post: phase will most likely end late tonight

lol

Give us a few more days for people to remove their votes from me, then we can finally end day 1.

Longest day 1 in history.

[Afrobean]

ps everyone that plays TWG or is interested in playing TWG, throw me a IM or a PM and I can get you the URL to the new offsite forum, complete with a stash of a bunch of old vets! Sign-ups for first game are today too so hurry up, in case we fill up the game completely with just the old vets. For the curious, I'm hosting it and it's basically this game, only with the CORRECT number of greens this time (there should have been one more green so there would be an even number of total players).

[Afrobean]

Actually, **** it. I'm gonna be getting into bed for the day soon.

Ask anyone with "FFЯ" under their name. Or go to the IRC at irc.rizon.net channel #ffya and ask about it there. Or ask Manti about it. He knows what's up.

[devonin]

Okay lets see. All quotes are from Afro's little subtext comments to our already posted conversation log.

At this point, Devonin seems to be attacking me because my mind isn't as resolute as I often make it sound. I'd think that he'd be glad to see that I'm not as hardheaded as that, but instead he thinks this is a point to attack me with

I wasn't attacking you because your mind isn't as resolute as you often make it sound. I was attacking you because you said you thought 4 people in two sets of 2 were wolves in a 3 wolf game. One of those statements (fic/a2p are wolves & dev/manti are wolves) was simply false necessarily. You've since backed down on fic/a2p but at the time I made the statement, you were asserting as true two things that were mutually exclusive.

Yeah, talking outside of the game shouldn't be allowed. Irony in the statement comes from the fact that Devonin and I were conversing outside of the game at the time

Talking on AIM is the primary media of communication for TWG, we weren't conversing outside the game. Taking some posts posted on a forum that had nothing to do with the game in a thread about the FFR site going down, that's outside the game. I was also just asking for clarification as to whether or not that should have been kosher. If I were trying to lodge a complaint about it, I'd have said it to Syhto not you.

Notice here that he goes from attacking me for being smug (not something to get lynched over) to stating flatly that I'm a wolf. He realized that I caught him in pointing out that character faults are not something to be voting on, even though he may well be doing it himself, or at least thinks that others voting for me are doing it

I'd already been maintaining that I believe you're a wolf all along, it's not like my saying you're a wolf at that point was surprising or unexpected. I also suggested a reasonable alternative (GASP!) to your theory that "The only reason they care about the game is because they must be wolves, greens never care about the game" which as I stated and still believe, is a retarded basis for concluding someone is a wolf.

Case in point: I said that the kill was a bad choice. Then I mentioned a couple of times that the wolves were stupid. A seeded comment to see if it would get a response from anyone, and sure enough, I got it.

My response was "Maybe they had reasons besides being morons to pick him" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

A little on the nose to say "I'll be enjoying being green." A little over-the-top. Could have easily instead said, "When you lynched and are a wolf, I'll be enjoying it." Because otherwise, he's saying that he'd enjoy being green, apparently only if I was lynched as a red. Really weird wording

It's not weird wording if you actually comprehend what I'm saying. I'm saying "As a human, I'm not enjoying the game in the sense that you're trying to get me lynched despite my being human, but if/when you get lynched and turn out, in fact, to be a wolf, then I will be enjoying the game"

The irony. It hurts... I love it. Actually, it's ****ing terrible because I'm the one about to be lynched while that jerk is sitting high and dry with not a single vote on him

Only ironic if I'm a wolf. Since I'm not, it's not ironic. This is quickly becoming Alanis-like irony though.

Am I bragging in my boastful claims? Bragging wouldn't begin until postgame, where my calls are confirmed or rejected. If he thinks it's something to brag over, it must be right though

You brag about your consistancy in picking wolves. Those are claims that you boast about. Did I say you were boasting about it RIGHT THIS SECOND? No, I said you boast about it. Which you do.

When I know I'm not". Again, a little on-the-nose. I know a green knows they're green. You don't have to keep telling me this, especially since no matter how you word it, I'm just going to see it as a bad lie

The fact that you see it as a lie just shows that you're either a wolf (In which case of COURSE you "see it as a lie" you know I'm human and want me dead, naturally you'll find any excuse to be critical of me) or you aren't as good at spotting wolves as you think you are.

I'm wrong? What is achieved by questioning my statement of "Killing Freaky was a bad idea"? It's an appeal to fear. It makes it appear that maybe killing Freaky WAS a good idea. But no matter how you slice it, I would have pushed to get the kid lynched today, so in wolfing him, the wolves gave us a shot to actually hit a red today rather than allowing me to plow forward on a green

How does suggesting that maybe the wolves had a reason besdies rank stupidity to pick him appeal to fear? It only appeals to fear if I said "So clearly the wolves are super-geniuses thinking ten steps ahead and we're all DOOMED!" All I said was "I don't think it's a good idea to just CONCLUDE that they're morons" The only person talking in terms of fear here is you.

Notice that appeal to fear is a fallacy. He shoots my reasonable idea down without submitting an equally or more reasonable option. He does this in attempt to make me seem less credible, not because the statement I put forward was illogical or unreasoned, but just to make me appear questionable in general, even when the idea I'm putting forth needn't be questioned

I didn't even do it to make YOU look less credible. Stop feeling so self-important. I would have said to -anybody- making a snap call like that "Maybe there's more to it" it had nothing at all to do with you personally. The way you reacted to my questiioning you, though, is what made it about you.

You heard it here, folks! Devbro is a FUDer in real life. Weird

I can't even begin to express how utterly you missed the point here. So wildly that I can only assume you missed the point because you had to. Wolf.

The Earth revolves around the Sun!" says Mr. White. "No, it doesn't," says Mr. Black. "But science and reason indicate it is so. What is the case if not this?" responds Mr. White. Mr. Black calls back, "i dunno lol"

Whereas in the example of killing freaky, you yourself provided 3 seperate potential alternatives. Also, questioning is valuable even in the ad absurdam (hey look I can reference logical fallacy too!) example you provided, if simply because people who strongly believe Mr White can draw from this questioning that they probably ought to question Mr Black a little more strenuously.

First, being able to get lynches done is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong

OR ARE A WOLF.

But finally, notice that he ends with "too dangerous to the human team to keep alive". He says this apart from the idea of me being a wolf. The implication is that even if I'm green, I need to be lynched. That's bull****.

I believe you are a wolf. Thus I believe it is a good idea to lynch you. However, even if I happen to be wrong, which I don't think is the case, and you -are- human, I am -still- okay with lynching you because you're going to great lengths to try and lynch a human.

I had never once called him any insult. In a previous conversation, I told him repeatedly how bad he is at the game. Closest thing to an insult I ever gave him

I consider that insulting.

He told me this repeatedly over AIM before signing up for this game. He said he played once and he wasn't able to adjust to the loose flying that's necessary. It's not his cup of tea because attacks need to be less resolute than he'd like. He doesn't like that the best attacks possible are the sorts of attacks I'm employing right in this very post. TWG is not the sort of game for him. Smart and logical don't always go hand in hand with social engineering, I guess

To this I say once again "You're funny Afro"

[Syhto]

I won't be joining you at the new forums.
Or here.

The only place I will be doing anything remotely ffr-esque will be on aim, with live twg's, which I'm thinking of having weekly on either friday or sunday nights. It would be helpful, if you want to play them, to get online or better yet message me.

There is one game scheduled for tonight at 7 CST. cya

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by devonin

I wasn't attacking you because your mind isn't as resolute as you often make it sound. I was attacking you because you said you thought 4 people in two sets of 2 were wolves in a 3 wolf game. One of those statements (fic/a2p are wolves & dev/manti are wolves) was simply false necessarily. You've since backed down on fic/a2p but at the time I made the statement, you were asserting as true two things that were mutually exclusive.

I never relented on fiction. A2P is the one I relented on, because I really had no reason to distrust him but for a gut reaction... a gut reaction that was built on a feeling I had from him during night 1.

Talking on AIM is the primary media of communication for TWG, we weren't conversing outside the game. Taking some posts posted on a forum that had nothing to do with the game in a thread about the FFR site going down, that's outside the game.

Anything outside of this thread is OUTSIDE THE GAME. The only venue for communication that is off limits is direct IRL contact. I don't think the telephone is even offlimits, but I don't think there's really precedent there anyway.

I was also just asking for clarification as to whether or not that should have been kosher. If I were trying to lodge a complaint about it, I'd have said it to Syhto not you.

It would be unreasonable for her to make that sort of judgment. She's quite new herself and may be prone to misunderstanding things, as you yourself have. You see "the game" as forum PLUS AIM. No. The game is just the thread. Private messages, regardless of medium, are outside of the game and are expressly allowed because of the format, even though such a thing is not generally allowed in Mafia.

I'd already been maintaining that I believe you're a wolf all along, it's not like my saying you're a wolf at that point was surprising or unexpected.

You misunderstand me.

I was criticizing the fact that you attacked me for being smug. You acted as though being smug was something I was doing that made me a wolf. You were acting as though me being smug was a good justification for voting for me.

Then when I pointed out the absurdity of you attacking me for being smug, you immediately reverted to baseless attacks again. It didn't surprise me to see you attack me baselessly, I just found your whiplash revert after attacking me for being smug to be a little messed up. You shouldn't say:

"I'm voting for you because I think you're a wolf. I think you're a wolf because you're being smug."

I respond: "Smugness isn't a good reason to vote to lynch someone. Me being smug doesn't make me a wolf."

And you just going back to "Oh well, I think you're a wolf so I'm voting for you."

I also suggested a reasonable alternative (GASP!) to your theory that "The only reason they care about the game is because they must be wolves, greens never care about the game" which as I stated and still believe, is a retarded basis for concluding someone is a wolf.

Not a particularly resolute conclusion, huh, since I'm not longer on A2P. You'd be right to say that it is a bad basis for a CONCLUSION, but I never really intended it to be that way. It's merely one piece of subjective evidence. I believe that this behavior is unlikely from most greens, therefore I would believe that these persons are less likely to be greens for that reason. I never said it was conclusive proof or anything.

My response was "Maybe they had reasons besides being morons to pick him" which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

herf derf

No offense, bro, but you need to work on your reading comprehension. I never said I truly believed the wolves to be morons or idiots or anything. All I said was that it was a bad choice. When I called the wolves out as idiots, I intentionally overstepped my bounds to see if I would get anyone defending the kill (which you just did) or get offended by it (which you did when you thought I called you a moron).

It's not weird wording if you actually comprehend what I'm saying. I'm saying "As a human, I'm not enjoying the game in the sense that you're trying to get me lynched despite my being human, but if/when you get lynched and turn out, in fact, to be a wolf, then I will be enjoying the game"

Nice attempt to inject another reason into what you say, a meaning that was right there on the ****ing surface. I was attacking you for SUBTEXT, and especially since I'm pointing out the subtext with the implication that you're a wolf, you wouldn't be aware of this subtext on a conscious level. I'm in your head, mother****er, and you don't even know it.

Only ironic if I'm a wolf. Since I'm not, it's not ironic. This is quickly becoming Alanis-like irony though.

It's like rain on your wedding day?

You mean this game is turning into an unfortunate turn of events? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Seems like you were just going for a clever turn of phrase in response to my accusations.

You brag about your consistancy in picking wolves. Those are claims that you boast about. Did I say you were boasting about it RIGHT THIS SECOND? No, I said you boast about it. Which you do.

Again you misunderstand the subtext of it. You are really bad at putting in unintentional subtext, and I'd wager that you're even worse at if you really try for it.

The fact that you see it as a lie just shows that you're either a wolf (In which case of COURSE you "see it as a lie" you know I'm human and want me dead, naturally you'll find any excuse to be critical of me) or you aren't as good at spotting wolves as you think you are.

Even if you aren't a wolf, you still can't know if I hit or missed on the other two. If I hit both of them, I'd be nailing a higher rate than my average for the last couple of games.

But I repeat: A GREEN WOULDN'T KNOW HOW WELL I AM DOING APART FROM THEIR OWN ONE ROLE. You telling me I'm doing poorly implies that you know something about the other two wolves. If I say "Devonin, Fiction, and Manti are wolves" and you say I'm "not as good at spotting wolves as I think I am", you are effectively saying that you "KNOW" I am wrong about at least two of the calls I've made. Only a wolf would know this.

How does suggesting that maybe the wolves had a reason besdies rank stupidity to pick him appeal to fear?

herf derf

Again, I've only said the kill was a bad choice. When I overstepped the line and insulted the wolves directly, I was LAYING A TRAP, hoping maybe I'd get some responses from the wolves. You know, some responses of people saying things like "hey, the wolves could have done it because they're smart!" or "don't insult us wolves ", which is pretty much what you've given me.

It only appeals to fear if I said "So clearly the wolves are super-geniuses thinking ten steps ahead and we're all DOOMED!"

Merely stating it's possible is an appeal to fear. It needn't be the most likely possibility (or even CLAIMED as the likeliest possibility) for it to make someone fearful.

All I said was "I don't think it's a good idea to just CONCLUDE that they're morons"

I never truly believed that they were, and you would know this if you paid attention. I even took the time to spell out the situation wherein a smart person would have made the bad kill.

But it's still a bad kill choice even if a smart person made the choice.

The only person talking in terms of fear here is you.

So you believe a person should be free to appeal to fear as long as they don't "talk in terms of fear"? Attempting to disrepute a reasonable statement ("The night 1 kill was a bad one") isn't an appeal to fear? You think the night 1 kill was a GOOD kill? Please, explain to me why this would be the case, as I've already made it clear that I would have campaigned hard for the guy's lynch today, and I would have had more than a little backup in getting it done.

I didn't even do it to make YOU look less credible. Stop feeling so self-important.

You attempt to discredit my statement without offering an alternative. What purpose does that serve OTHER THAN making me look less credible? Is it a good thing for us to go ON AND ON AND ON AND ON about the night kill just because you think there are other POSSIBLE alternatives than "the kill was a bad choice"?

**** you. The kill WAS a bad choice. You're just trying to defend your own kill because you feel insulted that I would call your kill bad.

I can't even begin to express how utterly you missed the point here. So wildly that I can only assume you missed the point because you had to. Wolf.

lmfao you are dumb, dude seriously

Whereas in the example of killing freaky, you yourself provided 3 seperate potential alternatives.

None of which matter in the slightest. No matter WHAT the path the choice came from, the choice was still a bad one. Deal with it. Your kill choice sucks. Learn from your mistakes, don't keep defending them incessantly.

OR ARE A WOLF.

"It's only a bad thing if my aim is misguided or simply wrong"

"Simply wrong".

You wouldn't think the case of a person being red and lynching a green falls under the example of being "simply wrong"? I made two opposite ended examples there. "Misguided" and "simply wrong". Misguided would be like last game where I lynched u84. Simply wrong would be when Syhto (as a wolf) argued against and voted to lynch u84 last game.

I believe you are a wolf. Thus I believe it is a good idea to lynch you. However, even if I happen to be wrong, which I don't think is the case, and you -are- human, I am -still- okay with lynching you because you're going to great lengths to try and lynch a human.

Or in other words

"I am in favor of lynching you because you are going to great lengths to get me lynched."

Excellent logic, bro!

I consider that insulting.

Then you're a fool. I'm not very good at chess, and if someone with a lot more experience at chess told me I was bad at it, I wouldn't feel insulted, I would just say "yeah, I don't have much experience lol."

To this I say once again "You're funny Afro"

Uh oh. The Kilga precedent.

Wolves use emoticons.

TOO BAD NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT I AM REFERRING TO

ps Syhto, you can't just stop doing TWG here. You're hosting this game. You have a responsibility to see it through.

[A2P]

lito
gun
u84

[Syhto]

This game is over, you seem to be the only one still playing. And even if it weren't, I'd certainly be able to discontinue the game if I felt like it. Now, I wouldn't just do that. But nothing truly ties me to this game. Concentrate on your ffya twg. By the looks of it, twg-- not to mention ffr as we know it will not continue gracefully. As I stated before, I'm finished.

By the way, Devonin was the guard.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Syhto

This game is over lol you seem to be the only one still playing.

dev too

So if the game is officially over with no winner, make a postgame thread and reveal all of the roles.

[Syhto]

Dev knew it was over already, and knew the roles.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Syhto

Dev knew it was over already, and knew the roles.

lmao why would he bother responding to my allegations then and why would he continue on the guise of calling me a wolf

I enjoy the walls of text personally, but he doesn't strike me as the sort who gets off on that kind of stuff.

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Syhto

Dev knew it was over already, and knew the roles.

No I didn't. I knew the game was over when I saw the postgame thread. And that was well after Afro had already also gone over to the postgame thread.

[Syhto]

You were in the chat when I revealed the roles

[devonin]

Um...no I wasn't. Or if I was, I was absolutely afk and not paying attention. I had no idea who the roles were until I went into the postgame thread.

[DarkManticoreX2]

Achived 5-22-2014 11:02 AM EST