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Old 12-21-2019, 07:37 PM   #1
melonpapes
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Default Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

(as art or professionals)

https://youtu.be/XWbfP85ETkQ

I thought this clip from JRE might lead to an interesting discussion here
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:47 PM   #2
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

Watched til 4:15 and decided that there wasn't much of an interesting discussion to really be had here.

I will add though that video games and gamersare getting way more respect and continue to do so over the last decade; I feel like the viewpoint that they are inheritedly harmful or less then any other passive art (like looking at a painting in Italy or whatever) is the minority and on the way out. Once the old timers who are convinced it's just an addiction exit the conversation then there isn't gonna be a conversation
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Old 12-21-2019, 07:55 PM   #3
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

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Originally Posted by MixMasterLar View Post
Watched til 4:15 and decided that there wasn't much of an interesting discussion to really be had here.

I will add though that video games and gamersare getting way more respect and continue to do so over the last decade; I feel like the viewpoint that they are inheritedly harmful or less then any other passive art (like looking at a painting in Italy or whatever) is the minority and on the way out. Once the old timers who are convinced it's just an addiction exit the conversation then there isn't gonna be a conversation
yeah you need to watch the whole thing, because other more nuanced discussions do take place that are more than just "do games make people addicted and violent". the people discussing do admit its subversive to older people because its unexpected and weird to make a career "playing a game". But when they start comparing it to games like Snooker and Chess, or even Golf, I can see where it gets muddy. The previous examples I listed are technically "sports", and usually being an athlete garners more respect, but I'd argue these sports have a much higher "mental" skill cap than a "physical execution" skill cap, though they all do require you to be able to "Execute" your mental plan in order to do "well". For example, you can have all the knowledge of geometry and physics in the world, but if you can't shoot pool or swing a golf club well, you won't be able to excel to the top ranks. Some of these games require a similar, albeit small, level of physical dexterity or skill to "Execute" and perform well, but most people don't give the same amount of respect or attention to a fortnite pro as they would a top ranking PGA golfer. Definitely not in a monetary sense, and almost assuredly the golfer would get more respect in social situations.

Another example that stuck out to me is Picasso's rendition of a World War 2 bombing as a painting is often lauded as a masterpiece, however, we can see many examples of "modern" artistry in renditions of warfare for video games. even in their pre-rendered cutscenes, there is a real amount of artistry that comes to bringing accurate and emotional portrayals of these events to screens to captivate the player, but I don't think anyone would compare the work that goes into a cutscene or even an entire level of a game to art on that scale, even though some games excel in delivering those experiences (eg. CoD is not really a good game, imo, per se, but damn if it doesn't do a good job of telling a great story sometimes. World at War is still one of my favourite games for how it portrays the soviet campaign to berlin)
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Old 12-21-2019, 09:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

I would argue that the physical cap for both golf and chess (professionally) is much, much higher than 99% of people would figure
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

where they say that older folks don't respect vid games because they don't like what they don't understand

i think that's basically it.

the dude with the hair kept stumbling over himself, which made me wonder why i was even listening to the guy. but i mean i guess it's good that they're talking about it
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:38 PM   #6
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

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I would argue that the physical cap for both golf and chess (professionally) is much, much higher than 99% of people would figure
But its a much more technical and precise physical cap, which I think opens it up to comparison to say, playing a game with a controller and being able to nail precise "shots" in a game with insanely consistent accuracy. What about an Osu! Tablet player? Shit, even DDR/ITGI would also say requires a certain degree of physicality, but just like golfing, neither require you to be necessarily "fit" to compete, just dexterous, or at most, they only need to display their physicality for short bursts. One of the most physically challenging aspect of golf, in my opinion, is the challenge of lugging a bag of clubs through 18 holes, which can be discarded because most times the pros pay someone to do it for them, or amateurs just rent a cart. The other aspect (actually hitting the ball) requires some degree of physicality, but its definitely a precision act as well. When you get off the tee, and start taking your 2nd and 3rd shots, you could even argue that some of the "raw power" elements are also discarded, as "crushing" the ball generally gets you nowhere as far as accuracy goes.

Professional chess I'd argue isn't physical at all. It is extremely mentally taxing, however. Especially if you are timed. I think all "pro" chess is timed, right? But on the scale of physical requirements, if you can lift your arm, you can play chess. If you can lift your arm and have extreme mental fortitude, you can play chess *well*. Keep in mind that I am not limiting "physical skill" to just displays of raw power, but also dexterity and speed. I'd wager that Chess takes no raw power, and almost no dexterity and speed. However, the extreme mental capacity required to play chess *well* under the stress of time is probably "maxed out".
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:48 PM   #7
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But its a much more technical and precise physical cap, which I think opens it up to comparison to say, playing a game with a controller and being able to nail precise "shots" in a game with insanely consistent accuracy. What about an Osu! Tablet player? Shit, even DDR/ITGI would also say requires a certain degree of physicality, but just like golfing, neither require you to be necessarily "fit" to compete, just dexterous, or at most, they only need to display their physicality for short bursts. One of the most physically challenging aspect of golf, in my opinion, is the challenge of lugging a bag of clubs through 18 holes, which can be discarded because most times the pros pay someone to do it for them, or amateurs just rent a cart. The other aspect (actually hitting the ball) requires some degree of physicality, but its definitely a precision act as well. When you get off the tee, and start taking your 2nd and 3rd shots, you could even argue that some of the raw power is also discarded, as "crushing" the ball generally gets you nowhere as far as accuracy goes.

Professional chess I'd argue isn't physical at all. It is extremely mentally taxing, however. Especially if you are timed. I think all "pro" chess is timed, right? But on the scale of physical requirements, if you can lift your arm, you can play chess. If you can lift your arm and have extreme mental fortitude, you can play chess *well*. Keep in mind that I am not limiting "physical skill" to just displays of raw power, but also dexterity and speed. I'd wager that Chess takes no raw power, and almost no dexterity and speed. However, the extreme mental capacity required to play chess *well* under the stress of time is probably "maxed out".
my knowledge of the physicality of golf is quite limited
look up a video of like 1-minute chess and you'll see that there's a ton of both dexterity and speed sometimes
actually, I'll not be lazy for once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLp2UbBNm0s
(skip to about 3:30)
and yes, I know this was not a "professional" game but its not unheard of to see professional players making moves this quickly under certain time controls

its a bit more than "if you can pick up the piece and think quickly, you can play chess *well*"
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

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Sorry but I'm failing to see how that doesn't just boil down to fast thinking and the ability to move the pieces, except for maybe the fact that memory has to be factored in, in the case that the other player might cheat. Surely thinking slowly isn't a benefit, so being quick thinking as well as forward thinking to all the possible moves of your opponent, seem to be the major "physical" factors to chess, besides moving the pieces. Am I missing something here? I put physical in quotes because I hesitate to call these physical traits, maybe extensions of mental ability, but traditional physical training will obviously have no great return on the ability to play chess. When I say speed, I mean movement speed and the endurance to keep that speed, not the speed of which one has to move an object on a board. Likewise, speed does not factor into Snooker at all for this reason. There is no benefit to being fast in Snooker. Likewise, the only benefit (as I see it) to being fast in chess is to execute the action of moving your piece to where you wish it to go before expelling too much time. This naturally ties into and correlates with being able to think quick.

I should clarify when I say "think quick" I mean in the context of a chess match, I.E. being able to analyze the board and its possibilities, sometimes many moves in advance, as well as analyzing your opponent, their strategy, and sometimes even their past strategy if you have that data available.
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:57 PM   #9
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Sorry but I'm failing to see how that doesn't just boil down to fast thinking and the ability to move the pieces, except for maybe the fact that memory has to be factored in, in the case that the other player might cheat. Surely thinking slowly isn't a benefit, so being quick thinking as well as forward thinking to all the possible moves of your opponent, seem to be the major "physical" factors to chess, besides moving the pieces. Am I missing something here? When I say speed, I mean movement speed and the endurance to keep that speed, not the speed of which one has to move an object on a board. Likewise, speed does not factor into Snooker at all for this reason. There is no benefit to being fast in Snooker. Likewise, the only benefit (as I see it) to being fast in chess is to execute the action of moving your piece to where you wish it to go before expelling too much time. This naturally ties into and correlates with being able to think quick.
"cheating" at the upper level just doesn't exist, and iirc the players must take notation of their opponents moves anyways so memory isn't even a factor (cheating using phones or earpieces to be fed optimal moves would be much more common, but that's another kind of cheating and not relevant)

I think it might surprise you to learn that older chess players do better under quicker time controls (the rapid chess champion was once over 70) and there is significant drop-off in age<->rating under slower time controls.
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:56 PM   #10
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"cheating" at the upper level just doesn't exist, and iirc the players must take notation of their opponents moves anyways so memory isn't even a factor (cheating using phones or earpieces to be fed optimal moves would be much more common, but that's another kind of cheating and not relevant)

I think it might surprise you to learn that older chess players do better under quicker time controls (the rapid chess champion was once over 70) and there is significant drop-off in age<->rating under slower time controls.
I was going to put that in my post, that I assume cheating is non-existent at higher levels of play because they are recorded and studied, so there would be no way of pulling it off, but in professional "Street" chess like in the video shown, theres really nothing stopping me from trying to pull some bullshit to win a wager against you? i still don't think you have addressed anything to do with my ideas of the "physicality" of chess. I did not say that age and mental acuity or even physical strength are mutually exclusive. If I did, or implied it somehow, that was my mistake.
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

heyheyhey it's ya girl out here requesting some recognition for watching a 10+ min video by joe rogan

thx fam
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There comes a point where we have to ask our selves, "do we really want to deal with that, desperate as we are?"

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Old 12-22-2019, 12:05 AM   #12
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Professional chess I'd argue isn't physical at all.
At the extreme top end of Professional Chess, a Super GM will lose nearly 12 pounds over the course of a tournament.

That level of focus, attention, and effort spikes blood pressure, increases heart rate. All of the top players now approach it like a more traditional sport.

They have personal trainers, dietitians, take more care to have downtime between tournaments, it is -very- physically demanding as well as mentally.

Heck, Magnus had a spike in performance by developing a better physical sitting position to put less strain on his neck and shoulders.

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Old 12-22-2019, 12:17 AM   #13
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At the extreme top end of Professional Chess, a Super GM will lose nearly 20 pounds over the course of a tournament.

That level of focus, attention, and effort spikes blood pressure, increases heart rate. All of the top players now approach it like a more traditional sport.

They have personal trainers, dietitians, take more care to have downtime between tournaments, it is -very- physically demanding as well as mentally.

Heck, Magnus had a spike in performance by developing a better physical sitting position to put less strain on his neck and shoulders.
I wonder if day long magic tournaments have the same results
could explain a lot
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:22 AM   #14
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At the extreme high levels like, the top 8 cut of a world championship or pro tour, the mental taxing can be something like on par.

The physical demands of spending 10 hours in a chair while trying to be mentally alert are definitely up there.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:23 AM   #15
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I wonder if day long magic tournaments have the same results
could explain a lot
does it explain the amount of asscrack? thanks for putting it into perspective for me btw Dev. How long is a typical chess tournament? One week?
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:24 AM   #16
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does it explain the amount of asscrack? thanks for putting it into perspective for me btw Dev. How long is a typical chess tournament? One week?
The major ones tend to be about 10 days, and you'll play 5 or 6 games.

At that level, you can burn around 6000 calories in a day where you play, and their blood pressure hangs around competitive marathon runner levels.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:33 AM   #17
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The major ones tend to be about 10 days, and you'll play 5 or 6 games.

At that level, you can burn around 6000 calories in a day where you play, and their blood pressure hangs around competitive marathon runner levels.
i enjoy these facts you are posting
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:39 AM   #18
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Fun chess fact:

The 1984 World Chess Championship between Karpov and Kasparov was to be decided "First to 6 wins"

Five months and 48 games later, with the record standing at Karpov 5, Kasparov 3 and 40 draws, the Championship was cancelled, due to the strain on the health of the players. Karpov had lost 20 pounds.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?

decades ago, being a pro chess player (if the term pro can be applied) was not prestigious
you were basically considered a professional gambler

I think that, in decades to come, professional gaming will experience a similar change (not to say that I think people view gamers as gamblers, but the addict part could apply) and it will eventually become more prestigious to be a professional gamer
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:43 AM   #20
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I don't think anybody currently views Pro Chess as anything like Gambling, and it's probably considered one of the peak pure skill pursuits to which one could apply themselves (I'd say Go, but it has less global appeal by an order of magnitude)

There's been a strong push in the last 5-8 years to bring eSports into the same sphere as traditional sports, and a lot of them have plenty of similarities and with marketing and budgets behind them, they've definitely become a legitimate career path for people who have the facility with them.
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