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Old 12-3-2016, 11:41 AM   #1
Arch0wl
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Default Stop Caring About Being Smart

* motivational writing
* somewhat nsfw language if this forum has a rule about that or something, idk
* link: https://alfredmacdonald.com/2016/12/...t-being-smart/

it's written with something of an archetype in mind, but I guarantee you know at least a couple of people who should hear something like this
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Old 12-3-2016, 11:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

This is actually one of the best things I've read in a while.
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Old 12-3-2016, 02:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

the subset of internet motivational writing that isn't about working out and/or saying cuss words has measure zero

i agree with the thrust of this post, and it's something i have benefited from bearing in mind, but every goddamn time i see a person name domain name it feels like the same tired shtick
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Old 12-3-2016, 02:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

you had me convinced at stop caring

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Old 12-3-2016, 07:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Quote:
Originally Posted by XCV View Post
the subset of internet motivational writing that isn't about working out and/or saying cuss words has measure zero

i agree with the thrust of this post, and it's something i have benefited from bearing in mind, but every goddamn time i see a person name domain name it feels like the same tired shtick
understandable, but all of that is coincidental. also, I wrote this, to be clear.

my post history is readily available on here, so it's not like the swearing is feigned. I've always talked like that.

lifting is a common motivational topic, but I mention it because (a) it's difficult; (b) it's necessarily humiliating at first; (c) a lot of people shy away from it for irrational reasons, despite its overwhelming benefits, and (d) it's a physiological process that doesn't get engaged by most people

as for the person name domain name,

* that is my name
* I use it as a storage place for my writing
* idk wtf else to call it
* if anything, calling it something other than my name feels more pretentious?
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Old 12-3-2016, 10:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

That was exceedingly obvious, and anybody to whom it is news is probably not interested in considering it anyway.
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Old 12-4-2016, 07:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

ok

I don't agree with either part of that sentence. both of those things are reflections of your intuitive probabilities -- 'obviousness' in particular is often just hindsight bias -- and not much more than expressions of your personal experiences.

even if I took you to be right though, it delineates a motivational strategy for people who do agree, who can engage the "not interested in considering" demographic on other fora.
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Old 12-4-2016, 08:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Of course you don't agree with either part of the sentence. If the sentiments of the post are obvious, then nothing effective was gained in publishing it. If it won't reach anybody except the people who already understand it, ditto. Your own bias requires you to believe that it is a fresh and new idea that will excite and engage people, or else you wasted your time writing it or sharing it. And who'd want to feel that way?

The basic gist of your message appears to be "Find a way to just not care that part of trying to succeed is failing. Learn to accept that failing is still growth, and keep acting anyway. Stop caring what other people think about your attempts."

And I still believe it is fair to say that nobody who is currently constraining themselves from trying something because of fear they will fail, or shame at failing in front of people who've already succeeded is going to be convinced by "Oh, just stop feeling that way" especially coming from somebody who basically represents the source of that fear and shame: Somebody who claims to have already succeeded.

When the whole suggested process for how to succeed is "Well, basically, you just keep doing it until you succeed and don't give a shit about any of the consequences of failure along the way" the people for whom those consequences matter greatly will likely actually find those feelings reinforced rather than removed.
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Old 12-4-2016, 08:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

wow, motive fallacy from the start. even though I gave stated reasons for the disagreement -- they're just intuitive guesses based on your experience -- you ignored them for motives you imagine I have just because.

this has already helped a few people, so the bias you mentioned isn't really in play here. FFR is a small fraction of my total views. I posted this for the benefit of people here, to read at their leisure. I don't have any expectations for what it will accomplish. you're incredibly presumptuous to presume my motives in spite of me telling you what my reasons for disagreeing are.

Quote:
The basic gist of your message appears to be "Find a way to just not care that part of trying to succeed is failing. Learn to accept that failing is still growth, and keep acting anyway. Stop caring what other people think about your attempts."

And I
if that's what the gist appears to be, get better at judging sentences before transitioning to "and". (and unless there's a complex gist, which there isn't, 'basic gist' is redundant.)

"don't give a shit about any of the consequences of failure" is not congruent with the message here. I emphasized alternate criteria, and therefore consequences, over intelligence. if the consequences of your failure are severe enough, of course you should give a shit about them. the message here is that the consequences for stupidity in particular are imagined and overblown, which creates a false impression of what the stakes are. consequences for other things, like removal of your work license or loss of college funding or going to jail, are still absolutely worth giving a shit about.

really not sure what the point of you replying here was if you weren't even going to read the post or bother to get my attitude and motivations right. I'm not going to presume your motives, but you don't strike me as being sincere or forthright.
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Old 12-4-2016, 09:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Quote:
wow, motive fallacy from the start. even though I gave stated reasons for the disagreement -- they're just intuitive guesses based on your experience -- you ignored them for motives you imagine I have just because.
Ah the curse of the self-taught philosopher.
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Old 12-4-2016, 10:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

yeah I'm not sure if I've even taken a single philosophy class let me check my transcript real quick

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Old 12-4-2016, 10:13 AM   #12
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

but my criticism would be legitimate whether it's self-taught or not, and you're just barking at shit that's logically irrelevant to what you wrote, which is doubly unproductive since what you wrote was superfluous here anyway
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Old 12-4-2016, 10:50 AM   #13
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Then I wonder why on earth you would try claiming that I committed a motive fallacy.

In order to do that I would have had to object to your point on the grounds of your motives for making the point, which I did not do.

You posted a thing.

I replied basically saying my perception is that you are preaching to the choir and the deaf.

You said you don't agree that you are.

I pointed out that it should have gone without saying that you didn't agree with that. Because if you agreed that you were, you wouldn't have wasted your time writing and publishing it in the first place.

I mean, the strongest implication of my response to your article is that I agree with it. I can't be attacking your position on the grounds of -anything- if I -agree- with your position.

My point was about whether it is going to reach anybody for whom it will be effective.

People who already feel this way will say "Yes, that is correct" and keep doing what they are doing.

People who don't already feel this way, in my perception and experience, are apt to see a message that seems to amount to "This thing is ineffective, just stop doing it" and say "Easy for you to say, if I could just -stop- having this be a problem, I'd already be doing it"

Saw a post by Milo just today basically saying "I quit smoking, and I did it by just quitting, and not being a pussy. No patches, no other crap, just deciding to stop and stopping" and I mean, rock on for him if he actually pulls it off. But that is SO MUCH easier said than done for people who aren't already able to just do things like that, that the message that all we need to do is what he did, stop being a pussy and just do it, is manifestly not helpful.
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Old 12-4-2016, 10:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Quote:
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Then I wonder why on earth you would try claiming that I committed a motive fallacy.
oh okay so you spent the first sentence or two ignoring my stated reason and going on about what you think my ulterior motive is just because you like doing that then

bullshit, but this tactic isn't beneath you

anyway, okay, you think this isn't helpful. great. next?

gonna address this though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post
(quitting smoking) is SO MUCH easier said than done for people who aren't already able to just do things like that
they're able. they're just not willing. those are two different things.

the "just do it" genre of rhetoric is not merely saying "just do it", or it'd be trivial. they're another way of saying "the things you think make you unable to do things don't actually make you unable, so just ignore them and act as if you could do it. just do it."
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Old 12-4-2016, 12:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

Interesting essay you wrote. I really enjoyed the part where you mentioned lifting weights.

I wouldn't say this article has taught me anything, but it gives me some sort of reassurance that what I'm doing is healthy for me. I used to be very skinny, borderline alcoholic, and a chain smoker (smoked for 7 years). I believe that most people are capable of making a complete change in their lives depending on how bad they want it. I also believe that they're some people who don't have the mental fortitude to quit things like smoking. Sadly, not everyone is not that strong minded.

If I had read this article a year a go, this would probably would do the complete opposite of what its intentions are - probably because the "just do it" message never really worked for me. You just kind of have to give a shit and learn to prioritize what's truly important.
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Old 12-4-2016, 01:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

It's the assumption and demand that there be a -next- or else I'm somehow not dealing in good faith or doing something wrong that seems to be your problem and one of the primary avenues for conflict between us.

I'm actually allowed to say "This is my opinion of a thing" or "This is a problem I have with a thing" without also having to propose a solution or next course of action, and that is okay. You may personally think it is a waste of time if you happen to disagree with my opinion or issue, but if you do, you can just ignore it.

Somebody expressed an opinion of a piece you produced. The "next" is as much on you as on me. You can take to heart that my opinion is legitimate and consider how you might improve the message to be more persuasive to the people I think won't be persuaded by it. Or you can decide that my issue is unfounded and ignore it. Or you can ask for clarification if my statement wasn't clear enough. Those are all options also available to you in addition to saying "So what"

It read to me like, in general, you are telling anxious people to deal with their anxiety by deciding to stop being anxious. And that's a neat trick if you can pull it off.

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Old 12-4-2016, 01:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

nah, because anxiety doesn't work that way. but anxiety is also a different subject. you don't need to stop feeling anxious to "just do it" though. I've done my fair share of anxiety induced lifting.
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Old 12-5-2016, 03:03 PM   #18
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

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nah, because anxiety doesn't work that way. but anxiety is also a different subject.
Anxiety is not a different subject, it's embedded in this intrinsically. Anxiety is a type of fear, and fear is the root of ALL avoidance behavior. In your case, you seemed to have experienced fear of being thought of as stupid. While the resulting emotions of being thought of as stupid is not fear, fear is the experience itself that prevents the behavior at the crucial point in time when you make a decision. The very basis of all punishment works through fear; fear is that base to human functioning. Inherent in this is the premise that emotions are the basis of all behavior, not thought; science and personal experience indicate that this is the case. http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/d...ecision-making

" you don't need to stop feeling anxious to "just do it" though."

True. One does need to, however, experience other emotions at the same time as experiencing the fear that counteract the fear in order for the fear to not control the ensuing action. Or one can dissociate from the fear, but that leads to countless other issues, the first of which is 'there is no reason to do it now'.

A necessary step in changing behavior is to become cognizant of your emotions and thoughts around the behavior in question, and how it affects you, what thoughts it brings up and what emotions it brings up, all the nuance involved with it. This step is not pleasant and is the 'hard part' involved with change, because everyone uses various psychological techniques to hide and prevent pain, of which there are many, extreme and notable forms include dissociations and addictions. The degree of psychological pain that is experienced upon doing this is not to be passed-over, some people don't survive this process, eg: an alcoholic who achieves sobriety only to commit suicide as death as it is the only other way of coping they can perceive.

This makes developing non-disruptive coping mechanisms (I say non-disruptive because everyone has coping mechanisms, but presumably if you're looking for change, some part of you perceives that what you are currently doing as coping is actually impeding you) extremely important in behavioral change, and also makes it important to develop, even if only through lip service, before taking that step into awareness. The reason why feigning the actions of self-care exists even when they don't seem to be doing anything at the time, is to try and tap into the routine/habit-forming/OCD part of who you are, such that when the rest of you mentally is ready to receive the full effects of that self-care, you are not floundering. Remember, you are aiming for full self-disclosure, for without that self-knowledge, you cannot make properly informed choices. Self-disclosure means facing the negative parts of you, the parts you'd rather not exist, the parts that most people will quiet and hush because as children when they existed, you were -made- to not show them through one way or another. At this point self-love is your best friend.

Once there is a full awareness of the situation and how you respond to it, then you can address each and every individual aspect of it. For avoidance behaviors, such as being scared to say something stupid hence there is a desire to say something but then it is shut-down by your fear, this is where you will hopefully realize what exactly is triggering the fear. It's probably a combination of who you're talking to, the context, the thought that you 'know' your opinion is unpopular, etc. For everyone these reasons will be unique, so there is no 1 way to then address them.

Note that at no point am I saying the fear will go away through this process. It won't, it will live stronger for a time because you've taken away the barriers against it, and at one point or another you will realize that your emotions are intrinsic to you and to cut them out is dissociative (the extreme extent of which death, again, results, as with no emotions there is no purpose, no choices are made,) and that living with the fear of being stupid is your only option if you also want to, for instance, learn everything and anything there is to know.

If you wanted to say something that you perceive might be thought of as stupid, you have to give yourself something more salient thing than fear. Once you've found that, (and again, these are highly personal reasons) and you then -go ahead with saying the thing that your fear is telling you not to do- the resulting emotion will be one of excitement. (fear mixed with some form of enjoyment.) (subs explained) You've now successfully done the hardest thing you will ever have to do for this process and change, (you've created a new path to follow) and that itself can be used as a reminder the next time you face the same fear. Maintenance of change is ever so hard because unless you destroy your brain (ECT anyone?) the old pathways, the old coping strategies, are still going to be there, waiting for you to step into them, and to use them you will likely feel little resistance, unlike when you consciously make a change. Which is why its important to develop small habits as part of the process, why it is important to try and be self-aware ALL the time, which is why its important to let yourself know that you've successfully done the hardest thing once and survived, and why self-love and forgiveness and acceptance are so important, (threatening yourself only works through fear, which is exactly the thing you are trying to counter).


Reading this sprouted too much in my mind for me to not say anything.
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Old 12-5-2016, 03:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: Stop Caring About Being Smart

All aggression behavior is based in fear too, that ever-touted fight or flight reaction.
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Old 12-5-2016, 03:43 PM   #20
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