GPA's accuracy reflecting intelligence.

[N.T.M.]

Seems like whenever somebody refers to an intelligent person they always seem to include their high GPA almost as if the two go hand-in-hand without exceptions. From what I've discovered, what's required to achieve a high (or perfect) GPA can certainly be done by a person with below average intelligence. Their score is determined by their effort.

Now I'm sure you all already knew this, but it seems like many people disregard the relationship and propose that there's a direct connection between a high GPA and a above-average-intelligence person.

For the sake of the poll's accuracy I'm going to assume that above-average-intelligence would encompass everybody in the CT section as they're supposed to express a higher level of thinking.

*poll complete*

I hope this qualifies as a CT thread.

[Kilroy_x]

There are strong correlations between achievement in any given area which requires a brain and any other given area. Presumably an actual structure of intelligence is revealed by these correlations. Of course there are exceptions. Much of the common school curriculum is flawed as well. Presumably that wouldn't be an excuse, however, because again the type of test is irrelevant. An intelligent person could give a better interpretation of the Bible than an unintelligent one, regardless of whether or not they actually believed in its contents. They might decline, but it would probably be a statistically insignificant number of individuals that would do so.

I've never really been sure what "effort" is. It always seemed so nebulous to me. Could you explain it?

[devonin]

I think the poll has nothing to do with this being a CT thread, since I think that most people here will be perfectly willing to agree with the following:

GPA is a very good indicator of someone's ability to provide work that meets the expectations of teachers, but neither that ability nor a high GPA are necessarily indicative of any level of intelligence.

[foilman8805]

Also, don't forget those who like to throw their IQ around like it is a concrete representation of their intelligence - I've noticed that people who openly boast about their GPA's and IQ's in order to belittle someone are the same people that are, in real life, the ones that are social outcasts. Kind of an interesting relationship.

As a side note, are you asking CT a question? Or making a statement?

[Kilroy_x]

Devonin, I'm not sure I would agree with that statement, and I also think the poll is perfectly appropriate. It provides information about a specific population (this board) which is directly relevant to the topic. Now, for a number of reasons there probably isn't much that can be done with that information, but it is still relevant.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by foilman8805

Also, don't forget those who like to throw their IQ around like it is a concrete representation of their intelligence

Most commonly used IQ tests seem to be good representations of general intelligence.

I've noticed that people who openly boast about their GPA's and IQ's in order to belittle someone are the same people that are, in real life, the ones that are social outcasts. Kind of an interesting relationship.

What are you trying to say? There are any number of reasons for this perceived relationship. An IQ gap of 30 points or more between teacher and student (in either form) tends to result in rather severe drama. There is a supposed correlation between high intelligence and mental illness, although that could easily be meaningless. You could just have gotten a really weird picture since the way you came into contact with the people you did probably wasn't through representative sampling. Any of these could explain the perceived correlation. I tend to think that social outcasts of this form aren't to blame for their social status.

[foilman8805]

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

Most commonly used IQ tests seem to be good representations of general intelligence.

What are you trying to say? There are any number of reasons for this perceived relationship. An IQ gap of 30 points or more between teacher and student (in either form) tends to result in rather severe drama. There is a supposed correlation between high intelligence and mental illness, although that could easily be meaningless. You could just have gotten a really weird picture since the way you came into contact with the people you did probably wasn't through representative sampling. Any of these could explain the perceived correlation. I tend to think that social outcasts of this form aren't to blame for their social status.

Well, take for instance current FFR user 'damanwithdaskillz'. In any thread where he feels he's become a target for flames, or feels he's cornered he resorts to saying that his IQ is higher than everyone else's; like this is a valid excuse for not following the rules, or just doing something completely unacceptable.

Also, I tend to think of IQ as your capacity to learn, not what you already know. Because someone has a high IQ, a high potential to learn, does not mean they know how to use those faculties for their own benefit. Therefore, I feel that it isn't a concrete representation.

Upon further review though, I would have to say that these people are probably the exceptions. Because the truth of the matter really is that someone with a high IQ is likely to be intelligent, and the same can be said with GPA. I wasn't trying to say that everyone with a high IQ doesn't know how to behave in a social environment, just that it's not the sole attribute of intelligence, and it is not a full and complete measurement of said intelligence.

[N.T.M.]

Originally Posted by foilman8805

Also, don't forget those who like to throw their IQ around like it is a concrete representation of their intelligence - I've noticed that people who openly boast about their GPA's and IQ's in order to belittle someone are the same people that are, in real life, the ones that are social outcasts. Kind of an interesting relationship.

As a side note, are you asking CT a question? Or making a statement?

It really isn't a question. I was mainly curious about the poll results to see how many people had a considerably low GPA yet were still more intelligent than the average person. I know the poll would only produce a very vague idea. Still, I was just curious.

Originally Posted by Kilroy_x

I've never really been sure what "effort" is. It always seemed so nebulous to me. Could you explain it?

Effort as in doing all the assigned work. Now this work may or may not be that difficult, but the person doing the assignments will still reap a good grade appose to maybe a more intelligent person who decides not to do them.

[Relambrien]

Finally, a subject I have personal experience with. My current GPA is above 4.0. I am considered the most intelligent person in my school, however, not just because of GPA. People often tell me they have trouble comprehending my explanations and logic, because they can't see how one thing leads to another for me, whereas I rarely have trouble with such a thing.

I'm also told that my insight into various subjects goes far deeper than anyone else's. I can draw conclusions that others can't.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but rather, give a firsthand account of the subject at hand. Anyway, personally, I don't believe GPA itself is an accurate measure of intelligence. Seriously, most people can get a 4.0; the amount of work required to do so varies, however. For instance, I personally rarely ever have to study (though when I get to college, it'll be a much different story), yet others I know with similar grades study very often. They also consider me to be smarter, though I'm uncomfortable with that.

The school system, at least in America, allows a person with below-average intelligence to do just as well as a person with above-average intelligence, though the person with below-average intelligence will have to do more. They'll have to study more, complete more extra credit, seek tutoring, etc, but they can still do just as well.

That's why, when people look at my GPA and say I'm very smart, I get a little annoyed. I do believe that I am intelligent; I'm not going to deny that. But it isn't my IQ (which I don't even know) or my GPA that makes me believe that; it is my logic, insight, and ease of learning that does.

There was actually this one thing I looked up, though I don't remember what it was called. This one guy decided that standard IQ tests don't fully measure intelligence, and divided intelligence into several--I think nine--categories. Here are some of them.

Creative intelligence - One's capacity for being creative (measured by taking a random survey of people and asking which of several things are most creative)
Bodily-kinesthetic intelligence - One's ability to control their body and to orient themselves (measured by screwing up a person's orientation such as with a device that inverts images received by the eye and asking them to perform routine tasks)

I think another category was emotional intelligence, but I forget the rest. If anybody could remind me who it was that came up with this, I'd appreciate it. I remember thinking "This is definitely a more accurate measure of intelligence than GPA," so I'd like to be able to provide more information for use in this thread.

[N.T.M.]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Finally, a subject I have personal experience with. My current GPA is above 4.0. I am considered the most intelligent person in my school, however, not just because of GPA. People often tell me they have trouble comprehending my explanations and logic, because they can't see how one thing leads to another for me, whereas I rarely have trouble with such a thing.

I'm also told that my insight into various subjects goes far deeper than anyone else's. I can draw conclusions that others can't.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, but rather, give a firsthand account of the subject at hand. Anyway, personally, I don't believe GPA itself is an accurate measure of intelligence. Seriously, most people can get a 4.0; the amount of work required to do so varies, however. For instance, I personally rarely ever have to study (though when I get to college, it'll be a much different story), yet others I know with similar grades study very often. They also consider me to be smarter, though I'm uncomfortable with that.

The school system, at least in America, allows a person with below-average intelligence to do just as well as a person with above-average intelligence, though the person with below-average intelligence will have to do more. They'll have to study more, complete more extra credit, seek tutoring, etc, but they can still do just as well.

That's why, when people look at my GPA and say I'm very smart, I get a little annoyed. I do believe that I am intelligent; I'm not going to deny that. But it isn't my IQ (which I don't even know) or my GPA that makes me believe that; it is my logic, insight, and ease of learning that does.

There was actually this one thing I looked up, though I don't remember what it was called. This one guy decided that standard IQ tests don't fully measure intelligence, and divided intelligence into several--I think nine--categories. Here are some of them.

Creative intelligence - One's capacity for being creative (measured by taking a random survey of people and asking which of several things are most creative)
Bodily-kinesthetic intelligence - One's ability to control their body and to orient themselves (measured by screwing up a person's orientation such as with a device that inverts images received by the eye and asking them to perform routine tasks)

I think another category was emotional intelligence, but I forget the rest. If anybody could remind me who it was that came up with this, I'd appreciate it. I remember thinking "This is definitely a more accurate measure of intelligence than GPA," so I'd like to be able to provide more information for use in this thread.

You made some very good points there explaining the possible inaccuracies of how a GPA reflects intelligence. I completely agree.

I'm sure the last method you mentioned (I'd like to see the whole thing) is far more accurate.

[tha Guardians]

I have 3 100's, and an F right now :/

I don't believe that school in anyway reflects you intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, cleverness, or potential.

[N.T.M.]

Originally Posted by tha Guardians

I have 3 100's, and an F right now :/

I don't believe that school in anyway reflects your intelligence, knowledge, wisdom, cleverness, or potential.

People have often referred to me as being an extremely smart person, however, my last GPA score when I was in highschool was .68. I use to have a perfect 4.00 though.

Presently foilman8805's avatar explains my feelings toward highschool perfectly.

[devonin]

Devonin, I'm not sure I would agree with that statement, and I also think the poll is perfectly appropriate. It provides information about a specific population (this board) which is directly relevant to the topic. Now, for a number of reasons there probably isn't much that can be done with that information, but it is still relevant.

Well, lucky for me, that I prefaced my statement with "I think that" and "most people" rather than simply stating my opinion as fact. It just strikes me from observation and experience, that a lot of people who I consider to be quite intelligent often find themselves with lower marks and thus a lower GPA that might be expected for their intelligence.

I have courses that I took this year where my marks appear quite dismal compared to past academic history, but it has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence or poor performance on work that I completed. In one such course, I finished the year with a 54% However, due to various other academic issues, I simply didn't do or hand in an assignment worth a full 40% of my final grade. So functionally, based on the work I did complete, 54/60 says 90% which according to several professors including the one who ran that class, is more appropriately in line with my observed abilities.

The issues exist in highschool of gifted students feeling bored, highly intelligent students feeling that certain work is irellevant and not doing it, or even as has often been the case in my academic history, once I'm assured of a mark that is at all acceptable for my needs at the time, I'm simply content to spend my time on other persuits.

As such, it stood to reason to me that the collective CT userbase, assumed to be reasonably intelligent, would likely share some number of those previous issues, and be perfectly likely to assert that while high grades -can- be an indication of a higher degree of intelligence (Or of a high degree of effort put in, or easy teachers, or bribes or whatever) it would be faulty to try to conclude that "A high GPA" is in fact indicative of "Intelligence"

As to the poll, if you assume that I was correct in my assertion that most people here will say that GPA doesn't map to intelligence, the presence of a poll asking our GPAs won't really provide anything useful except as a second means of demonstrating the conclusion we'd all likely state anyway.

[foilman8805]

Originally Posted by N.T.M.

People have often referred to me as being an extremely smart person, however, my last GPA score when I was in highschool was .68. I use to have a perfect 4.00 though.

Presently foilman8805's avatar explains my feelings toward highschool perfectly.

Hahaha, I got a good laugh out of that.

But in all seriousness, do you not give a damn, or are you just lazy?

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by foilman8805

Well, take for instance current FFR user 'damanwithdaskillz'. In any thread where he feels he's become a target for flames, or feels he's cornered he resorts to saying that his IQ is higher than everyone else's; like this is a valid excuse for not following the rules, or just doing something completely unacceptable.

I would need specific examples in order to form an opinion on that. Could you link me to a few?

Also, I tend to think of IQ as your capacity to learn, not what you already know. Because someone has a high IQ, a high potential to learn, does not mean they know how to use those faculties for their own benefit. Therefore, I feel that it isn't a concrete representation.

What does knowledge have to do with intelligence? Well actually it seems like you yourself are saying "nothing" already, so I have to ask; why is IQ not a good measurement of intelligence again?

just that it's not the sole attribute of intelligence, and it is not a full and complete measurement of said intelligence.

How would you propose measuring intelligence? This issue is very important in a number of fields, most notably Math and Psychology. You have a lot of existing arguments to account for, and I'm not sure the expertise to do so.

[Kilroy_x]

Originally Posted by Relambrien

There was actually this one thing I looked up, though I don't remember what it was called. This one guy decided that standard IQ tests don't fully measure intelligence, and divided intelligence into several--I think nine--categories.

That would probably be Howard Gardner. There seem to be two main objections to his work, the first being that he doesn't seem to offer any evidence that his different forms of intelligence are tied to actual different mental faculties. This is especially important in light of all the work on intelligence done by structuralists, those who support mathematical reductions of intelligence such as Spearman's G (this is probably the bulk of professionals in the field, although even just outside the field you probably find a majority of people who have some other conception of intelligence). The second is, many of the things he lists as forms of intelligence could more accurately be called skills.

[N.T.M.]

Originally Posted by foilman8805

Hahaha, I got a good laugh out of that.

But in all seriousness, do you not give a damn, or are you just lazy?

I just completely stopped caring. I developed a hatred for the highschool system and it quickly started to significantly compromise my GPA. Eventually I stopped caring entirely.

[Relambrien]

Thanks Kilroy; that is indeed who I'm talking about.

Here's an overview of the types of intelligences he talks about. You can find a more in-depth explanation at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences

Bodily-Kinesthetic - The ability to control one's body and use "muscle memory"
Interpersonal - The ability to interact with and understand others
Verbal-Linguistic - The ability to work with words and languages
Logical-Mathematical - The ability to analyze, use logic, and reason
Naturalistic - (note: not originally part of Gardner's work) Sensitivity to nature and one's surroundings
Intrapersonal - The ability to understand oneself and be self-aware
Spatial - The ability to visualize and mentally manipulate things
Musical - Sensitivity to tone and sound

Now, as for the objections to his work, I can't say anything about whether these are all tied to different mental faculties. The good thing about that is the layman's definition of "intelligence" doesn't bother itself with that, so it doesn't matter to most people.

I can talk about "intelligence vs skills" though.

A "skill" generally refers to a person's proficiency in a certain action, comparable to knowledge, whereas "intelligence" can refer to an affinity for something, or ease of learning. Basically, how well someone has the ability to understand, learn, and apply. For instance, someone may be fluent in Spanish but found it very hard to learn. Then you may have a high school student who's having a very easy time learning the language. The former demonstrates knowledge, the latter demonstrates intelligence. Ease of learning isn't something that can be developed like a skill can, so the best way to refer to it to most people is "intelligence."

[Reach]

GPA is correlated at best mildly with IQ (r=0.5 on a good day, essentially meaning 75% of the factors contributing to GPA are not intelligence related). That aside, I think it's fairly clear even in spite of this correlation, GPA has next to nothing to do with intelligence. A high GPA is not achieved through the use of higher mental capabilities...producing novelty, having a high degrees of creativity and thought, solving problems that cannot be be solved by the average person (e.g. Einstein, who by all accounts was a lazy dog in university) etc. You achieve a high GPA by doing exactly what you've been told to do and, generally, dedicating a lot of your time to memorizing and practicing materials you've been given. Most people with the highest GPAs are type A personality workaholics. I think Med schools etc in the past and are still learning lessons through their selection of only the ultra high GPA individuals and realizing their workforce is far from balanced and less than efficient.

So yes, a high GPA can be achieved with relatively little intelligence. You need enough to be able to grasp the material you're learning at best, and from there the people with the highest GPAs are those that work the hardest for them. High school graduates average ~100-104 IQ. University students ~105-110. Professors have been found all over the place, ranging from 85-130+.

Also, I tend to think of IQ as your capacity to learn, not what you already know. Because someone has a high IQ, a high potential to learn, does not mean they know how to use those faculties for their own benefit. Therefore, I feel that it isn't a concrete representation.

Well actually, IQ tests generally measure crystallized and fluid intelligence. Crystallized intelligence is essentially the application of knowledge to solve a problem and fluid is solving the problem without prior knowledge to work with. So, they measure how you can apply your knowledge, which is infinitely more important than actually knowing things. I wouldn't consider Ken Jennings to intelligent just because he can regurgitate facts. Kim peek can do that as well, and his IQ is 70.

[Rubin0]

Personally, my "intelligence" has never been accurately represented through my grades. Compared to IQ tests that I have been forced to take and the grades I bring home....it is almost ridiculous. I bring home C's to B+'s because I know it is just high enough that my parent's won't kill me, and low enough that I won't really have to work that hard. I lose most of my credit through assignments that I just fail to turn in and not showing up for class. I know plenty of people that bring home A's, but yet have an average IQ. They go to class, do all their assignments, do the extra credit, etc. I believe it has a lot to do with determination. I really think people can achieve almost anything if they try their darnest. I never really cared about school and my grades reflect that. I'm almost ashamed.

Intelligence is a person's potential...not their actual achievement.