Steer clear of Skype.

[igotrhythm]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Don't you need to have skype installed and running to use the skype plugin on Trillian? It really wouldn't make any difference at that point.

Nope, you just need to provide your login data to Trillian. I /have/ uninstalled Skype and Trillian talks just fine with my imported contacts.

[devonin]

I'll take it that you're telling me it's perfectly acceptable to accept defeat and not waste your time worrying about it. lol

If you don't do anything illegal, and are even remotely careful to have different passwords for each of the 3 or 4 most vital things you have passwords for, I don't really see a purpose to worrying about whether programs you use are gathering info about you.

100% of them are, and you've agreed explicitly to 100% of them by clicking that "I agree" button at the bottom of all that text you didn't read.

If you don't accept a ToS or a EULA, you can't use the thing you want to use. So I say "Am I more paranoid about what they might do with information they could gather from this program than I am interested in using this program?" and the answer is always no.

[Izzy]

they are watching you masturbate through your webcam.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Originally Posted by devonin

If you don't do anything illegal, and are even remotely careful to have different passwords for each of the 3 or 4 most vital things you have passwords for, I don't really see a purpose to worrying about whether programs you use are gathering info about you.

100% of them are, and you've agreed explicitly to 100% of them by clicking that "I agree" button at the bottom of all that text you didn't read.

If you don't accept a ToS or a EULA, you can't use the thing you want to use. So I say "Am I more paranoid about what they might do with information they could gather from this program than I am interested in using this program?" and the answer is always no.

ah I see. Yeah I always think about reading the EULA but I never really do because I just deal with it on my own if something dumb happens (like that Smart TV vid) eg. stop using the product, or just say it's bullshit but adjust.

Originally Posted by Izzy

they are watching you masturbate through your webcam.

At least someone besides me enjoys it. lolol

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Izzy

they are watching you masturbate through your webcam.

So they're all overcome with lust and jealousy? Man, I'm like saving the world here!

[MixMasterLar]

EDIT: Ninja'd, @Dev

My compliment was aimed at your (insinuated) point of "They got our info, they haven't used it to the best of their ability yet". I guess I should have been more clear with that. In the end I will ALWAYS have an issue with them having that ability regardless of what they are doing with it---but I acknowledge that it's a good thing we haven't seen that happened yet.

The trick is to just not be a guy who does the kind of things that would get you into trouble if the government found out about them.

That's a fairly lame excuse to let anyone gather you're info. If the cops kept barging in your house randomly, would you seriously take the stance of "oh well nothing illegal here so it's all good"? I should hope not.

If you have no reason to be suspected of crime, then you have the freedom to exist without harassment. Period. Maybe that's a U.S mindset of thinking, but Hitchen's Razor should naturally come into play and if they suspect me of crime they need to show where I could be legitimately suspected first and foremost. Saying "They could be" Is not a valid excuse. Yes, that scenario is a little different then just gathering tracking stats and sitting on their hands, but that's seriously flawed reasoning to justify it; start letting your government have free reign in such manners and you're bound to start losing rights simplybecause you could be misusing them, you could be doing something wrong.

[devonin]

That's a fairly lame excuse to let anyone gather you're info. If the cops kept barging in your house randomly, would you seriously take the stance of "oh well nothing illegal here so it's all good"? I should hope not.

Passive information gathering isn't harassing me. By definition it is happening passively, where I don't have to deal with it.

I just DON'T CARE if Google tracks what I google search for, or if hotmail reads my emails so the banner ads for things I will never click on are still unlikely for me to ever click on.

Because I don't Google search 'how to make napalm' or 'hot preteen girls' and I don't send emails plotting to blow up buildings or kill a dude, I'm really not worried about what anybody may or may not be doing with the content of my emails and search history.

You're going from "Private services, run by private companies with terms of service I AGREED TO EXPLICITLY and could simply have -not agreed to- in exchange for no longer using that service are passively tracking what I say for keywords to target advertising" to "Cops randomly barging into my house and searching it" which is hyperbolic in the extreme and utter nonsense.

[choof]

Originally Posted by devonin

If you don't do anything illegal, and are even remotely careful to have different passwords for each of the 3 or 4 most vital things you have passwords for, I don't really see a purpose to worrying about whether programs you use are gathering info about you.

I'll have to do some post searching but Rubix posted a link about this being an absolutely terrible stance on privacy.

[choof]

http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debu...thing-to-fear/

[Pseudo Enigma]

Originally Posted by choof

http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debu...thing-to-fear/

So basically the difference between my arguments and the arguments of others in this thread, is a difference between thinking 1 step ahead and multiple steps ahead?
Or in other words, some people are more naive than others?

I dunno anyway, I guess I should probably think about these things more. I didn't think about those things seriously.

[choof]

I'm just saying that "I don't care about privacy because I'm not doing anything illegal" is a really bad stance. I care that my data is being saved and mined, but it's a fine trade-off for an easy-to-use product, in my opinion. If it becomes anything more, then I will cease using it.

Another good read:
http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...wed_to/caeb3pl

(the first section of the comment is the one I'm referring to, haven't read the second one)

[Mollocephalus]

Originally Posted by devonin

There are two kinds of intelligent reaction to the knowledge that elements in the world are gathering tracking and analysing miscellaneous information about everybody:

1/ Go on paranoid lockdown, and only pay for canned goods with the cash you keep stashed in your matress

2/ Accept that you are never going to have the time, resources and will to actually try and stop the information from being gathered, and not care.

The trick is to just not be a guy who does the kind of things that would get you into trouble if the government found out about them.

This is perfectly logical, however there's a small problem with this. When a government has the control over all your data, in a scenario where you can be controlled in any way possible, no one stops it from making unfair rules, which you cannot avoid to abide to. This is not about conspiracy, if i was in charge and i had means to access people's data at any time, of course i would do it. And i would likewise invest in better ways to monitor, keep track and filter all this huge amount of data so the control i have over my citizens is more efficient.

[choof]

i hope the nsa enjoys the scores i get on stepmania

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by Izzy

wat

should have clarified. I use AIM too, so having that + skype is cluttery sometimes

[devonin]

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus

This is perfectly logical, however there's a small problem with this. When a government has the control over all your data, in a scenario where you can be controlled in any way possible, no one stops it from making unfair rules, which you cannot avoid to abide to. This is not about conspiracy, if i was in charge and i had means to access people's data at any time, of course i would do it. And i would likewise invest in better ways to monitor, keep track and filter all this huge amount of data so the control i have over my citizens is more efficient.

My point is that my ability to actually combat any of the things they are doing (with superior technology, superior finances, superior time/manpower investments) would require resources that I don't have and wouldn't spend on that even if I did.

Going to absurd lengths to turn down their ability to passively monitor me by 0.01% is simply not worth it. If the government decides it wants access to information about me, I really don't think I'd have much hope in stopping them, so rather than stress about what they MIGHT be doing MAYBE in the future, I pay attention to what they are currently doing now that we know about, and so far, that's nowhere near concerning to me.

It's not about me saying "I'm doing nothing wrong, so I have nothing to fear" because that is some bullshit strawmanning right there.

It's about me not having anything accessible to them that I wish they couldn't see, and so not bothering to waste the time trying to protect things that aren't secret. The things that -are- secrets are not kept in a place they can see (At least I don't think they can see into my brain) so why would I get all paranoid about whether or not they are looking at irrelevant things?

Don't say "I have nothing to hide, so I have nothing to fear", instead say "Because I'm not afraid, I don't need to hide things."

[devonin]

Originally Posted by choof

I'm just saying that "I don't care about privacy because I'm not doing anything illegal" is a really bad stance. I care that my data is being saved and mined, but it's a fine trade-off for an easy-to-use product, in my opinion. If it becomes anything more, then I will cease using it.

Another good read:
http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...wed_to/caeb3pl

(the first section of the comment is the one I'm referring to, haven't read the second one)

One - The Rules May Change - Advocating people to engage in the slippery slope fallacy.

Two - It’s not you who determine if you have something to fear - The idea that knowing we're being watched we'll stop doing innocent things that might -look- guilty for fear of being assumed to be guilty is also only a problem if you throw out evidence-based law, and fair trials. If those things no longer apply, none of this is relevant at all anyway because they'll be able to just round you up and shoot you regardless of whether they are monitoring you or not.

Three – Laws must be broken for society to progress - Increased ability of the state to survail or investigate people doesn't prevent this from happening at all. Most "unjust laws" that get changed through activism are already broken out in the open, where everybody can see anyway.

Four – Privacy is a basic human need - Not always for all people. And regardless, even if you want privacy, the subject WE are discussing on this forum is information gathering by a party that you have explicitly agreed to allow to gather information. The service they offer in exchange is entirely non-vital, unimportant and largely irrelevant to the ability of a people or society to function. If the government wants to put cameras in everybody's home whether they want one or not, come and talk to me again. While this discussion is about an email or chat client monitoring what you voluntarily send through its entirely optional service, this is all just taking the piss.

[igotrhythm]

I think what everyone is missing here is that people don't know what Skype is doing in the background. All these wild goose chases about data mining for whatever purpose are just that. You agreed to the EULA, fine, but as a consumer I'd want to know what I'm getting into without having to wade through 10 pages of legalese.

The point remains that it's doing mysterious things, and from a network security standpoint, if you don't know what it does, it's dangerous. If you wanna talk with your buddies, fine, but sending private or sensitive information, or god forbid a picture of your junk to your girlfriend, means that you're taking a big risk.

If I'm directed to an exit survey web page asking me why I quit using Skype when I run the uninstall process THROUGH THE CONTROL PANEL, that kinda screams that there's a piece of code that runs as a sort of parting shot. And if there's insidious crap like that that I know of, the question of what ELSE is it doing is the sort of stuff that keeps you up at night.

The fact that I'm posting this at 4 in the morning is entirely unrelated, but I thought it would add emphasis to my statement.

[L.B.D.D]

iRobot soon..

[choof]

igr, uninstalling programs from the control panel is the same thing as using the uninstall shortcut

that is, whenever you select "uninstall" in control panel, it looks for an uninstaller and runs that

[MixMasterLar]

Dev: So if it really comes down to it, you're willing to just submit to anything you don't think you can fight? Your choice, bro.

And I'm no where near saying we are at that bad a point where actual rights are being taken away because of Skype or something, just that things slide downhill and since I know the government would snowball me if they take advantage of that mile then that makes me less inclined to give them their inch. Saying that it's kosher for any computer program to mine info, use it in a way not even remotely related to it's services and keep me in the dark about it is too big an inch.

Also you keep saying that I agreed to it. Funny, it's been awhile since I read the legal terms to Skype (I actually did read them back when I first got the program in 2007) and I don't recall anything about gathering message content/cookie info and shipping them to 3rd party users. I actually want to say it had a pretty straight up install.