orlando shooting

[kommisar]

Originally Posted by choof

this isn't rly a gun issue

are you serious


it's mostly a mental health one, but removing guns entirely have been insanely effective in every country that has implemented it.

"Between 1991 and 2001, the number of firearm-related deaths in Australia declined 47%" < a country that has banned them entirely since 1996.

but guns aren't an issue rite

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by korny

Misspoke. Only meant to say that the prioritizion of Islam reformation should be #1

i mean we're actively bombing isis, hunting al qaeda in afghanistan and elsewhere *coughpakistan*

we are actively fighting radical islam. it is our first priority.

so now that that's happening, lets keep guns out of the hands of terrorists, yeh?

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by adlp

woops just saw korny addressed that. good stuff

also thot provoking question??? if islam is the religion of peace then how come the extemists arent extremely peaceful?/ checkmate

if christianity is the religion of christ, how come the extremists arent extremely christlike?

does that mean that christianity doesnt even believe in jesus holy crap your math works real good.

[kommisar]

I like it when people bring up the cultural differences between america and other countries that implemented stricter gun control laws. i get that you can't just take everyone's guns away but I feel that the paranoia that someone's out to kill you and your family in america feeds that need to have a weapon for "protection".

ait so context.

here we have a lot of guns. it doesn't necessarily translate to violence; but the background checks make a big difference apparently



yet



but that's getting a little off-topic. I'm confident regulation in the states would be effective, especially since crime has been decreasing.

[SKG_Scintill]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

i mean we're actively bombing isis, hunting al qaeda in afghanistan and elsewhere *coughpakistan*

we are actively fighting radical islam. it is our first priority.

so now that that's happening, lets keep guns out of the hands of terrorists, yeh?

how dare they act based on their religious beliefs
we will fight back by acting based on our non-religious beliefs

*golfclap*

[SKG_Scintill]

bigotry on both ends

[SKG_Scintill]

bomb the believers!
= atheist radicalism

[SKG_Scintill]

I'm hungry

[j-rodd123]

Scintill outed as ISIS sympathizer

[SKG_Scintill]

rip me

[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by SKG_Scintill

how dare they act based on their religious beliefs
we will fight back by acting based on our non-religious beliefs

*golfclap*

uhhhhhhhhh what?

are you defending al qaeda and isis?

[SKG_Scintill]

I'm defending the idea that violence isn't the solution
don't fight terrorism with terrorism

[Frank Munoz]

as funnygurl mentioned, read the Qur'an. in fact, read every religious text you can get your hands.
In this case the
Qur'an [2]
and the
Old Testament
These are merely a few translations of each text, so to really get a full understanding i suggest reading multiple translations of each.

the Qur'an and Hadiths are interpreted differently by everyone
as with (here we go again) every religious text
from multiple faulty translations
it's why they keep getting re-translated.
again, read multiple ones

The infamous parts I believe many people want to know about in the Qur'an are
72 virgins
Punishing gays
Abuse against Women

which, again translations are all different and ultimately we must decide for ourselves the true meanings of Islam(anytext for that matter) but, the Qur'an does not condone harming sinners directly for the most part, but rather states that they will be punished(specifically) by Allah/God, usually in the afterlife.
also there is one mention of one virgin, but it is not in any way sexual from what i read.
killing yourself is also forbidden, read 4;29-30, an-Nisa'.
I will obtain verses from multiple texts, rather than let yall have my word for it... later. We all know we want facts, not claims.
Yall can look around online, google some specific sections but youll see that they're not all entirely accurate sometimes. Possibly due to the translation thing. and there are multiple sides of "Qur'an teaches you to kill people" and "Qur'an literally teaches peace". so go have fun with that if ya want.again, i'll prolly do the research for ya some time in like 3 years, but what truly matters is your own cumulative thoughts with newfound knowledge you learned yourself.
also don't forget to READ MULTIPLE VERSIONS

cleric Salman al-Ouda
"Within Islam is the correct view that homosexuality is not coated with any punishment in this life. It is a sin to be held accountable for in the next life."
-----

the attack made by Omar Mateen may have been ISIL-inspired, but not ISIL-directed

shooter(Omar Mateen) who called 911 to pledge allegiance to ISIS/ISIL reportedly saying
"I did it for ISIS. I did it for the Islamic State."

[x]He apparently also posted to facebook(his profile leads to a dead page now so these are based on what authorities are telling us, which we know may not always be the whole truth)
“America and Russia stop bombing the Islamic state..I pledge my alliance to abu bakr al Baghdadi..may Allah accept me.”

after, it's reported he posted this as well
"The real Muslims will never accept the filthy ways of the west ... You kill innocent women and children by doing us airstrikes..now taste the Islamic state vengeance"
Mateen shows sympathy for the bombings the USA dropped on Muslim oriented states
Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, ect... and wants revenge, but why?

the USA bombed those states alot,
for decades, apparently ceasing in 2011 for a bit
not to even mention the crusades
these are some major reasons isis is alive to this day,
because to them, the usa are terrorist,
ISIS revolves around returning the damage the usa has brought to them, while following their interpretation of the Qur'an,
slaying enemies of Allah even at the cost of their own lives
martyrdom
also again--- suicide is strictly forbidden, and you will be punished to fire
(4:29-30; an-Nisa')
29 O you who believe! Do not consume each other's wealth illicitly, but trade by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves, for Allah is Merciful towards you.
30 Whoever does that, out of hostility and wrongdoing, We will cast him into a Fire. And that would be easy for Allah.
there are more verses supporting this but this is the most direct one.
Simply do not end the life god/Allah has given you

ofcourse there are still suicide bombers, as we westerners say, thinking they are being martyred... a very skewed perspective and misunderstanding of what Islam is.
these are what we have currently been referring to as "Radical Islam"(ISIL)
and have been comparing to "Radical Christianity(KKK)
these are not the same as Islam, or Christianity.

Finally, Mateen reportedly ends his Facebook posts with a threat
“In the next few days you will see attacks from the Islamic state in the usa.”

[x]After the shootout Patience Carter, a hostage, reported Mateen saying he
"wouldn't stop his assault until America stopped bombing his country"
and
"I don't have a problem with black people. This is about my country. You guys suffered enough."

There are also reports suggesting the probability of multiple gunmen, though there is no more evidence than the claim.
[x]Mateen bought his firearms legally at a shop in Port St. Lucie.
He was labeled a suspected terrorist threat in 2013. Investigations took place in 2014 as well after linking Omar to Moner Mohammad Abu Salha who suicide bombed Syria. They stopped investigation after finding nothing warranting further tracking.


Sitora Yusufiy, Mateen's ex wife claims that Mateen's father called him gay in front of her as well as her fiance, Marco Dias and his family, as well as others, believe Omar was gay.
Dias also says that Yusufiy was told by the FBI not to reveal this to the American Media.
Many reports of Mateen being seen at the night club previously for the past three years appear, as well as using multiple gay dating apps.
One former classmate of Omar Mateen’s 2006 police academy class told The Palm Beach Post that he believed Mateen was gay, saying Mateen once tried to pick him up at a bar.
His father was also very strict with religion,
and there's a video going around where his father says
"Homosexual should be punished by god"
people seem to be thinking this is praise for Mateen's actions,
when in reality he's quoting the Qur'an, appalled at Mateen.


also Kaj3
All of those verses state that sinners will be punished "hereafter", by Allah, in the after life.
there are also verses describing what will happen to sinners, not what one must do to them; again, allah handles the punishment. and if you take matters into your own hands, you are therefore attempting to take god's role, and are then banned from paradise, a sinner.

also you're cutting out the verses to better fit your views.
there are many parables that need to be read fully, as well as the Qur'an itself to understand completely.

Any Islamist who harms themselves, or another with bad intentions will lose access to Allah's paradise.
As stated above.

Also saying "saying this is stupid and weak" is stupid and weak.
You get what I'm saying???
"This shit doesn't make any sense"
"it's truly an embarrassment that you would say (x)"
it's unnecessary, and petty.

Either way, once again
the true teachings of Islam are interpreted differently by every
single
person
as well are the different iterations and translations

Just as every religious text

[korny]

Originally Posted by Kaj3

Good stuff

Having a computer must be nice

[Frank Munoz]

Originally Posted by Kaj3

@Frank Munoz

What the fuck does the old testament have to do with anything? Yes, we know, it's the most barbaric holy book in history, but are there any Jews living by its teachings? Not really. The Quran and the Hadith is another thing. We actually have Muslims putting into practice what is contained in their Islamic texts.

"which, again translations are all different and ultimately we must decide for ourselves the true meanings of Islam(anytext for that matter) but, the Qur'an does not condone harming sinners directly for the most part, but rather states that they will be punished(specifically) by Allah/God, usually in the afterlife.
also there is one mention of one virgin, but it is not in any way sexual from what i read."

Yes, a Quranic passage, or bible passage, could be interpreted differently by two different people, but it's important to look at trends and take seriously the most frequent and overarching interpretations. For example, what many Muslims take from Islam, particularly from the teachings of Muhammad during the Medina period is a religion of war and bloody Jihad. Also, I find it fascinating that you say the Quran doesn't condone this, but from what I read, it clearly does. My interpretation of the Quran is one that is supported by many top Islamic scholars, one of which is the leader of ISIS. You can continue to deny reality and try to muddy the waters, but the interpretation that Islam is a religion of violence, not a religion peace, is a serious and well regarded one.

"the USA bombed those states alot,
for decades, apparently ceasing in 2011 for a bit
not to even mention the crusades
these are some major reasons isis is alive to this day,
because to them, the usa are terrorist,"

Holy shit. This is a mother lode of regressiveness. The Crusades? USA foreign policy? Are you serious? What the fuck does this have to do with anything. Islamists have been engaged in barbarous missions before the the USA even existed. Do you even Islamic imperialism in the last thousand years? Do you even Ottoman Empire? Do you even Armenian Genocide? I'll just leave this here for you:



"ofcourse there are still suicide bombers, as we westerners say, thinking they are being martyred... a very skewed perspective and misunderstanding of what Islam is.
these are what we have currently been referring to as "Radical Islam"(ISIL)
and have been comparing to "Radical Christianity(KKK)
these are not the same as Islam, or Christianity."

The KKK? LOLLLL! You seriously mentioned a defunct and widely dispersed group of 5,000+ racist rednecks and tried to equate that with ISIS, a group with over 100,000 members, that has massacred thousands of people in the last year or so?

"All of those verses state that sinners will be punished "hereafter", by Allah, in the after life.

also you're cutting out the verses to better fit your views.
there many parables that need to be read fully, as well as the Qur'an itself."

Yup, the thing is, those verses are from the Medina period, which supersedes the Mecca period. I am pretty sure you're well aware of this, considering your experience in Muslim apologetics. But please tell me how "slay them wherever you find them" is taken out of context. Also, Please try to refute the stats that I posted, since it seems you think Islam doesn't promote homophobia when the vast majority of Muslims believe homophobia is immoral. And you seem to think that Islam doesn't promote martyrdom when suicide bombing is something that is heavily prevalent in the Muslim world. The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance is phenomenal.

Suicide bombings are prevalent, true. As there are many islamic followers who interpret the text wrongfully, and will, as said before, be punished by flames.
4;29-30
Also if you read anything else from this thread you'd know that pinning the actions of ISIS and the KKK were a sound topic.
You're also using ad hominems to, dare I say, radical sense. As if they hold any merit.

"Yes, a Quranic passage, or bible passage, could be interpreted differently by two different people, but it's important to look at trends and take seriously the most frequent and overarching interpretations."
Yes, we should look at trends, you know what's trending?
Gun violence.
"My interpretation of the Quran is one that is supported by many top Islamic scholars, one of which is the leader of ISIS."
Your interpretation is that of a radical Islamist. You literally just said it.
As the scholar is the leader of ISIS.

Islam is homophic, yes.
But the Qur'an says specifically that god will handle their punishment. again.... allah handles everything. and if one tries to take things into their own hands, they will be punished by allah
saying that islamic texts promoted Mateen to shoot up orlando is near to say the old testaments are what caused the KKK to kill black people.
they were influenced by the text, yes. but the text itself does not promote you to harm another

[Dynam0]

@Frank his point is that there are many more followers of the Medina scripture than the Christian equivalent who follow the Old Testament. Moreover those Islamic scriptures of the Medina period are much more violent than Old Testament are.

The religion itself is literally founded on raiding and wars

[Frank Munoz]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

@Frank his point is that there are many more followers of the Medina scripture than the Christian equivalent who follow the Old Testament. Moreover those Islamic scriptures of the Medina period are much more violent than Old Testament are.

The religion itself is literally founded on raiding and wars

it is when there are those who threaten their god, like the usa did.
which is why violence revolving islam is so consistent.

but this is more about mateen himself as was my original point.
his underlying motives as to what would cause him to commit the crimes he did.
as well as the history of misinterpretation on what god truly wants.
just as kaj2 interprets Islam as the leader of ISIS does.
whether kaje truly wants to understand the religions heinousness of what is Islam, which i'm not saying is all about peace, i'm more curious as to what propositions jake will propose to 'contain' the violence tendencies of those who misinterpret it.
As it stands now, those who strongly believe islam is the root of all evil want it to be bombed.
Which, in turn.. you know how that'll work out.

[adlp]

Originally Posted by Rojaf

if christianity is the religion of christ, how come the extremists arent extremely christlike?

does that mean that christianity doesnt even believe in jesus holy crap your math works real good.

obviously it was sarcasm lool

[adlp]

hooly shit kaj3 with the writeup, good shit dude.

[kommisar]

I don't think I need a citation for christians against homosexuality lmao


but being on twitter a few days after was pretty tragic
http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geer...-club-shooter/


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand christian religious leaders supporting the killings. now i'm not dumb, they're a minority. but they exist:
"American voters support 53 - 40 percent allowing same-sex couples to marry and support 53 - 44 percent the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage in all 50 states" - Quinnipiac University Poll August 3, 2015

https://www.qu.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2265

idk 40% is a lot of people. now this is simply for "marriage" but preventing them to do so on religious grounds is nothing short of discrimination.