Stepmania timing window question

[TheSeventhSign]

In Stepmania, there's an option to change the timing window for Perfects. It's from 1-7 and then Justice, or something along those lines.

What would you say FFR's timing window is in Stepmania terms? The default is 4, and I've only played Stepmania once or twice (I don't know what I think about it yet), but since I'm so used to FFR, I'd like some things to be familiar to me. I just found out the "Note" skin and that makes it a whole lot more playable.

[gnr61]

Around Judge 3 is equivalent I think to FFR timing. for more exact, open up the preferences.ini file and set the timing windows exactly equal (in seconds) to those of FFR

[TheSeventhSign]

Odd, some buried FFR instinct told me it would be something more like 3, but I didn't want to make things too easy. Thanks.

I'll definitely check preferences.ini out, but would you happen to know the value in seconds of FFR's timing? If not, I'll stick with timing 3. =)

By the way, for any future insight I may get, I should probably note that I am NOT using Marvelous timing. I think it's dumb. Marvelous is more perfect than Perfect? Nnnnnno.

[silvercomet1525]

I believe FFR runs at 30 FPS, so that's 1/30, or 0.0333... seconds per frame.

The arrow timing is

Average
Good
Perfect
Perfect
Perfect
Good
Average

So if we take the note to be at the exact center, there's 1.5 frames of perfect at each end. So 1.5x0.0333... = 0.0500 seconds at each side or 0.1 seconds for the whole window. Goods and averages are 1 frame each and so should be 0.0333... seconds each.

So that's 0.100000 sec. for perfects, 0.166666 sec. for goods, and 0.233333 sec. for averages.

Someone correct me if I did something wrong somewhere.

...

I'm such a nerd.

[emerald000]

The major difference between FFR and SM with these settings is that the goods will break the combo. You can, if you want, fix that by a little cheating:

JudgeWindowSecondsBoo=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsGood=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsGreat=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsMarvelous=0.100000
JudgeWindowSecondsMine=0.166667
JudgeWindowSecondsOK=0.250000
JudgeWindowSecondsPerfect=0.166667

Turn the Marvelous timing and voila!

Note that Marvelouses are FFR perfects, perfects are FFR goods and greats are FFR averages with these settings. Goods and boos are removed.

[TheSeventhSign]

Originally Posted by silvercomet1525

I believe FFR runs at 30 FPS, so that's 1/30, or 0.0333... seconds per frame.

The arrow timing is

Average
Good
Perfect
Perfect
Perfect
Good
Average

So if we take the note to be at the exact center, there's 1.5 frames of perfect at each end. So 1.5x0.0333... = 0.0500 seconds at each side or 0.1 seconds for the whole window. Goods and averages are 1 frame each and so should be 0.0333... seconds each.

So that's 0.100000 sec. for perfects, 0.166666 sec. for goods, and 0.233333 sec. for averages.

Someone correct me if I did something wrong somewhere.

...

I'm such a nerd.

Again, that FFR instinct told me it was 1/30 of a frame for 3 frames, but the diagram really helped. The thing is, when I put those values in, it was absurdly easy to hit Perfects (and note I am on Judge 4 for timing since it seems to weight everything at 1.000000, which I'm assuming is everything's true value). I tried hard to hit Good and couldn't.

Also, it seems to me like either Average should be 0.200000, or Good should. It seems there's a one frame gap in the math, but I could be wrong, and don't worry about it too much, I get the overall process. =)

Originally Posted by emerald000

The major difference between FFR and SM with these settings is that the goods will break the combo. You can, if you want, fix that by a little cheating:

JudgeWindowSecondsBoo=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsGood=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsGreat=0.233333
JudgeWindowSecondsMarvelous=0.100000
JudgeWindowSecondsMine=0.166667
JudgeWindowSecondsOK=0.250000
JudgeWindowSecondsPerfect=0.166667

Turn the Marvelous timing and voila!

Note that Marvelouses are FFR perfects, perfects are FFR goods and greats are FFR averages with these settings. Goods and boos are removed.

Okay, so I should assume that Marvelous takes over Perfect since Marvelous is turned off? I'll try it, thanks. But if not, again note that I don't use Marvelous.

[emerald000]

1 Average
2 Good
3 Perfect
4 Perfect
5 Perfect
6 Good
7 Average

There is a 7 frames gap for the average. 7/30 = 0.233333. Also, I forgot that one line:

JudgeWindowSecondsAttack=0.233333

Should work now.

EDIT: The timing I posted was to make more like FFR. In SM, the goods remove the combo. By moving each ranking up, you remove the need for the goods, and the averages thus make like in FFR. You can still keep the other way though, but you will need that line I posted in here.

[TheSeventhSign]

Okay, did that stuff, but I'm still able to score a Perfect by hitting before the incoming arrow has even touched the receptor arrow (completely not touching).

I think the problem is that we applied the math of FFR's framerate to Stepmania's. The concept will work, but I think we need to apply that math to Stepmania's framerate in order to get it to work right.

The thing is, I don't think it has a set FPS. It runs 254-256 FPS on my computer while I'm playing the game (I turned on that option where you can see it in the top-right corner).

EDIT: Hmm, looked it up on the Stepmania message board and it seems like there's an option that caps it at the refresh rate of your screen, or something (VSync?). Trying that.

EDIT AGAIN: NO WAY
I could barely hit them at all that way, lol. It was 60 FPS so naturally I halved the values, and as a result I was pretty much pwnd. I'm out of ideas at this point. Thanks for all the input guys. Maybe try it on your systems if you please and see if it's just me.

[emerald000]

Tried my settings and I was able to get a great out of an aroow in the middle of the screen. Out of ideas here also...

[MixMasterLar]

Not really on topic, but if you play SM alot on regular 4 or 5, you'll get better at timing and will pwn FFR

I play SM on 7, and it helped my DDR scores alot!

[TheSeventhSign]

Yeah, probably Lar. Although I'm passed the point where I need to improve my timing. Plus, FFR timing is different. It's like, fake, lol. It's early. I'm too used to it now.

[silvercomet1525]

Actually, I think I really did think I screwed up. Perfect (or Marvelous) should be 0.050000, not 0.100000. And the others should be 0.116666 and 0.183333. I accidentially counted all 3 frames of the perfects rather than 1.5 if the note was centered on the frames.

Different framerates shouldn't be a problem though. All the frames change are how much finely each second is subdivided into. 0.05 seconds at 30 FPS is the same length as 0.05 seconds at 60 FPS or 256 FPS. The only difference is that 30 FPS will round to each 0.03333 while 60 will go to 0.01667 and 256 to 0.00390 second increments.

JudgeWindowSecondsAttack=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsBoo=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsGood=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsGreat=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsMarvelous=0.050000
JudgeWindowSecondsMine=0.116667
JudgeWindowSecondsOK=0.200000
JudgeWindowSecondsPerfect=0.116667

It should work now. Either that or I completely screwed this up.

[TheSeventhSign]

Ah, so I was overanalyzing the whole FPS thing. ^_^

I'll try those numbers out and move 'em around if it doesn't work exactly right. Thanks again. =)

[Roy Campbell]

If you want to have better timing in FFR, I highly recommend NOT setting the timing window in SM the same as FFR's timing window. Try playing on judge 6 or 7 with marvelous timing turned on in SM for a while and you'll probably see a huge improvement in your timing. I highly recommend playing both easy and hard songs on judge 6/7. Also, screenshrinking in SM like you do in FFR (if you screenshrink) might help you visually time the arrows in FFR better, just don't follow up on FFR right after trying this as FFR may appear too choppy.

[TheSeventhSign]

Originally Posted by TheSeventhSign

I'm passed the point where I need to improve my timing. Plus, FFR timing is different. It's like, fake, lol. It's early. I'm too used to it now.

Already addressed that one, don't need help with timing, don't need help with playing techniques, I have 206 AAAs, some being CIA Rave, X-Dreamer Final Cut, insert difficulty 9 jack / stream level here. If this was about improving on FFR, I would play FFR, not make a thread about Stepmania timing. I'm used to FFR (as 206 AAAs would imply) and I'd like to keep it that way, thanks for the concern though.

And as far as I can tell, those values actually emulate FFR's timing darn well, silvercomet!

[Tia-]

fucking cheaters

I got a question and I was gonna use this title so this is my thread now

Timing windows for J1-9, where can I find them in the Etterna directory? I need them for comparisons sake, any and all help is appreciated

ʕ￫ᴥ￩ʔ

[Tia-]

fuck, yeah I see it.

I'll just track down mina or ask someone else with work in the game to pastebin it for me, good looking out man o/

[AutotelicBrown]

FFR only has early averages, late hits in the same frame window are goods instead. Also SM won't reproduce the frame quantization FFR does, which is one of the main differences in feeling between playing the two games.

Originally Posted by silvercomet1525

JudgeWindowSecondsAttack=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsBoo=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsGood=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsGreat=0.183333
JudgeWindowSecondsMarvelous=0.050000
JudgeWindowSecondsMine=0.116667
JudgeWindowSecondsOK=0.200000
JudgeWindowSecondsPerfect=0.116667

No idea why are you skipping 2 frames (~66.6ms) per window, the correct timings would be 0.083333 for perfects and 0.116666 for greats (and the rest). Also note that you actually made the timings for mines, OKs and Attacks harder arbitrarily, those should be kept default or made easier if you only care about reproducing FFR (as they don't even exist in FFR).

Originally Posted by Tia-

Timing windows for J1-9, where can I find them in the Etterna directory? I need them for comparisons sake, any and all help is appreciated

From Etterna's root folder, look in Save/preferences.ini for the lines:

TimingWindowSecondsW1=0.022500
TimingWindowSecondsW2=0.045000
TimingWindowSecondsW3=0.090000
TimingWindowSecondsW4=0.135000
TimingWindowSecondsW5=0.180000

Those are the default J4 timing windows in seconds from hardest to easiest (e.g. marvelous to boo) and all judges are derived from it. The actual timing windows are obtained by multiplying those values by judge based constant factor in preferences.ini:

TimingWindowScale=1.000000

This is the value if you are in J4. I don't remember the exact values for each judge but it's something like 0.866666 for J5, 0.666666 for J6, 0.5 for J7 and so on. Just change the judge and reload preferences.ini to check the new TimingWindowScale value.

For example, on J7 the boo/W5 window will be 0.18 * 0.5 = 0.09s or 90ms.

[Tia-]

You're a beautiful person, thank you for your help \o/