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01-12-2005, 06:28 PM
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#1 | |
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let it snow~
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Age: 37
Posts: 14,444
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TWG VIII Postgame
What went wrong? I think it was quite obvious. First, evilbutterfly is saved (somehow) and immediately forms an alliance. Second, LD and Tsuteto have a whole crapload of votes on them, so Tsuteto ends up biting the bullet. I obtain evidence of cheating (from BlahBlah, thank you so much) and call him on it. This is in Appendix A. Two wolves gone and a huge alliance against them, the wolves have no chance left. The next two days are the end of theirs and the humans pull off a victory in the minimum time allowed, even though Day 1 saw Chardish off.
Here were the roles: Afrobean (Kali) - Human (Won the game). Alainbryden (Niobe) - Human (Killed on Night 4). blahblah18 (Seraph) - Guardian (Won the game). chardish (Kid) - Mason (Lynched on Day 1). CypherToorima (Ajax) - Human (Won the game). evilbutterfly (Ghost) - Human (Won the game). flypie743 (Trinity) - Mason (Killed on Night 3). Kefit (Smith Clone) - Agent (Lynched on Day 3). Kilgamayan (Morpheus) - Mason (Won the game). lightdarkness (Smith Clone) - Agent (Removed from game). JurseyRider734 (Neo) - Mason (Won the game). Lupin_the_3rd (Ballard) - Human (Won the game). M-A-C (Oracle) - Psychic (Won the game). nforcer06164 (Vector) - Human (Won the game). roopert (Tirant) - Human (Killed on Night 1). Tps222 (Soren) - Human (Won the game). Tsuteto (Smith Clone) - Agent (Lynched on Day 2). whorlichan (Smith Clone) - Agent (Lynched on Day 4). Oh, and if I'm allowed to give MVP awards, I think evilbutterfly MORE than deserves it for being able to form an alliance of special roles consisting of ZERO wolves. Congratulations, it is well-deserved. --------- Appendix A: Quote:
LD, you impersonated the host and lied about it. That's more than enough grounds for a one to two-game ban. Everybody that has been an active participant in any TWG is now on the "Jury" to decide his fate. Vote for zero, one, or two-game ban. No more than that; that's just cruel. ~Squeek |
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01-12-2005, 06:33 PM
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#2 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Where you're not. Your stupid
Posts: 430
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
one. Give LD a break.
OMG YES. I made it to the end without leaving. Do I still get that MVP award? |
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01-12-2005, 06:35 PM
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#3 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NOW BLAHTOPIA
Posts: 1,662
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
Ok, I thought it was a real good game.. at least from my point of view on things. I was the guardian, and chose to guard LD night one as he seemed someone that would be a good night 1 kill along with alain or cypher... they went for roopert, I really had no clue why.
After seeing all the attacks on alain and what not I made a snap judgement and decided to go for Chardish as the ringleader of it, since Kilga seemed human and I wasn't goign to go for kefit at that point... I foudn it odd that I was able to convince so many people so quickly, but nonetheless, went throguh with it and Axed Chardish... I also organized the order in which the people would vote in the hopes that it woudl seem that EB was the main force behind the push. The reason for this was that I was the guardian and figured EB woudl be a great chocie to guard night 2no matter what, and I wanted to help push the wolves in that direction. Doing so, I also "leaked" to practicalyl everyone that the guardian contacted me and that I was being guarded... I figured it was extra protection for me and more of a chance of EB being chosen... Sure enough, he was, and then I had to quickly think how to explain I was lying... LD caught me at first because at first I was kinda indignant that I wasn't guarded, but then realized that story woudl get me lynched when i coudln't produce the name of a guardian, and I wasn't goign to point a random finger and act as a vigilante, killing someone off. So I thought that the only way to avoid lynching and Wolfing was to say that it was all a plan between me and the guardian (which it was  ) and then to "let slip" again that the guardian was flipping a coin between me and EB... I told EB I was guardian, MAC came forward as the psychic, and EB got contacted by the masons, and we came together... It turned out Chardish was a mason, so we had a 6 person alliance. LD kept pushing me, and it was found out that he knew flypie and Jurs were masons, so because he was acting suspicious anyways basaed on the information, we decided to silence him.. then he "showed the pm" and we'll get into that later, not in this discussion...the way all the votes went, it was obvious that either tsuteto or alain had to be a wolf and since I refused to believe I was being played so badly, I convinced the others that alain was safe, so down goes tsuteto.. We were then told 2 wolves left.. I had to make a snap chocie between EB and flypie to guard, and looking back I feel that I should've chosen flypie as a better chocie, because it woudl be assumed that LD told the other wolves she was a mason.. but a amson has no spercial ability, so with EB being a confirmed human, they both seemed even in my mind.. I forgot the story we made thogh that woudl protect us both.. a slight botch on my part, but 1 save is still pretty decent... We were ready to lynch nForcer when him and Alain convinced me and EB otherwise that we really had no just cause for him, and since I had been waiting to hit Kefit, I figured it was a good time... Right again, 1 wolf... Alain suspects he's goign to die but there's a slight chance he's a wolf so I decide to guard MAC, because although I knew odds are he wasn't being killed, it was more improtant to know if kefit was a wolf or not, so why take the risk at this point... At this point the only nonconfirmed humans are afro,lupin,cypher,tps,nforcer,whorli afro we were fairly confident on based on the way he acted this game vs. last Cypher because he was nowhere to be seen nForcer, because he dug Kefit's grave so the only Possible chocies were lupin tps and whorli Whorli seemed most suspicious, we chose her, and that was the game.
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01-12-2005, 06:38 PM
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#4 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NOW BLAHTOPIA
Posts: 1,662
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
I was thinking of saying one, but it seems that LD got a warning as well from the mishaps in TWG V... I think it woudl be unfair if we did not give him the same sentence under this scenario... if it was a first offence, I would say 0 or 1, but since he was "on parole" I think I ahve to go with two even though I feel really bad doing so becuase I don't think he was trying to cheat, bnut just trick people.. but its like using ignorance of the law as an excuse.. you jst can't
 I do want to say though that I believe him when he says that he didn't think it was cheating... but the fact that remains that it would've altered the game in a way not psosibly managed any other way.
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01-12-2005, 06:40 PM
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#5 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NOW BLAHTOPIA
Posts: 1,662
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
oh by the way, its easy to say EB did everything, but he knows it was all me
 its also easy to have an all human alliance when you only accept special roles
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01-12-2005, 06:43 PM
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#6 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: ---->
Age: 36
Posts: 1,925
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GG humans. Very well-played.
NotSoFarOff (8:50:40 PM): Everybody that has been an active participant in TWG is now on the "Jury" to decide his fate. NotSoFarOff (8:51:01 PM): Could you specify? Not just for me...but others that haven't played in this past TWG. NotSoFarOff (8:51:07 PM): Is it this game, or any game? Stop Drop and Di (8:51:14 PM): Any. Well, I do think that this is cheating. But it is very arguable if this was cheating or not. But I will not be arguing. One.
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01-12-2005, 06:43 PM
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#7 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NOW BLAHTOPIA
Posts: 1,662
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
Also, I didn't mention, the reason I voted MAC, was because I wanted to see who woudl come along with him (possible wolves) and I told EB that this woudl help provide MAC with greater protection agaisnt a wofl attack if they thought the alliance didn't trust him.. so its why i vote dhim at first and eb made him sound suspicious... I was still nervous though which is why I guarded him anyways... but I feel my plan of keepign him from having a remote chance of being wolfed probably helped a lot...
OMG QUAD post.. sorry guys, but each idea was separate s shoudl've been in separate posts
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01-12-2005, 06:44 PM
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#8 |
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Tiny Plastic Meat
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The Valley, Los Angeles
Age: 40
Posts: 669
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
For LD: Two-game ban. He cheated twice (once in TWG5, once in TWG8), same as Tass, and deserves the same punishment.
From Tass: same thing, 2-game ban for LD (he's standing over my shoulder) and he'll post if absolutely necessary. In the game: You humans were way too smart, and Kefit and I were left all alone after LD's debacle and Tsuteto's death. I am amazed I lasted an extra day, but I guess Kefit was slightly more suspicious than I was. Kudos to blah for figuring me out way early. Good game, all. Also, I want it recorded in the TWG rules: People from outside of the game should not be allowed to influence votes like Tass did. Having read some of his conversations now that the game is over, I don't believe he said anything that could have helped in the game (nor did he tell me anything I could have used, nor would I have let him; we were very very wary of any possible cheating) and I am still very strongly convinced Afro should not have been able to use anything he may have said as evidence for a vote. If he had other suspicions about me THAT was what he should have used. Once again: Good game all I will be absent from TWG until the Manhunt is on in order to bypass all the inactivity votes.
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Goddess of Chocolate Sauce First ever graduate of the Quetzacoatino Academy for Aspiring Deities My lame LJ My friend Cassie's amazing photography |
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01-12-2005, 06:54 PM
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#9 | |
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Admiral in the Red Army
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the moon
Age: 36
Posts: 13,262
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
There is a rule that people outside the game should not be allowed to influence. It's the same as the rules on dead players. I think because of Tass' shady AIM conversation, he should have some sort of negative reprecussions. It doesn't matter if Whorli was human or wolf, he never should have said what he said to me.
Also, GG to all humans. You did great. Sorry to Chardish for helping to lynch you. Also: Quote:
Oh yea for LD: 2 games. I'd say 1 or none, but as others have said, he's already been involved in cheating before.
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01-12-2005, 07:01 PM
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#10 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
Attention idiot humans:
SOMETHING IS VERY FISHY WHEN ALL THE VOTES TURN AGAINST A POWER PLAYER WITH 6 HOURS REMAINING BEFORE THE END OF THE DAY. Though I shouldn't be talking, because I had none of the wolves right... : ( On to LD. Everyone read carefully, as this involves the game as a whole. TWG has always been a game about using your brain to find out who the wolves are, sifting through innumerable lies to dig up the truth. It is a game about knowing who to trust (if anyone), and separating suspicion from truth. The only piece of irrefutable evidence a player possesses about their role is their PM that tells them their role. Obviously, if irrefutable evidence is brought to the table, it completely destroys the spirit of the game. What was one a game of suspicions and lies becomes a game of who can manufacture the best fake evidence. It no longer becomes a Werewolf Game, it becomes a Photoshop contest. Thus, obviously we can't have bringing PMs to the table. But, as we've learned and experienced, some people don't want to play the game the way that it was meant to be played - some people are more concerned with a quick and easy win by proving their identity than playing the game. Some people consider the manipulation of the game rules and the finding of loopholes to be a more noble pursuit than the game itself. This ruins the game for everyone else, as not only do some people possess knowledge others don't, but it prevents all the legit players from being able to prove themselves human by normal means. If PM proof is being offered, and humans are getting away with it, why would humans settle for anything less? Thus, we had to say that not only was sharing your PM illegal, discussing the contents of your PM was illegal. Bringing PMs into the game ruins the game. TWG is not a game about proof, it is a game about reasonable doubt and incriminating statements. The only "proof" that exists in the game are messages to the seer and psychic, which are also forbidden from duplication (though playing the game in a digital environment also makes that difficult.) Discussion of your PM is forbidden, discussion of the contents of your PM is forbidden, asking other players about the contents of their PMs is forbidden. So, LD, you present the interesting paradox that fake PMs are allright, but real PMs are not. If it appears to the general public that you as a wolf are presenting them with a legitimate PM, then what is the difference between that and you as a human are presenting them with your actual PM? Both have the same intended purpose: to prove to the humans beyond any doubt that you are one of them, at the expense of the fun of the game. But you want us to discriminate on your behalf. What were we supposed to say? "We know LD shared his PM, but it was a fake one, so it's okay?" The rules are simple: YOU KEEP PMs OUT OF IT, PERIOD. Real or fake. Every player should know and understand this by now. PMs HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS GAME, and when you bring them in, you sodomize the game. You encourage other players to accept only PM proof as evidence of humanity. You show your intellectual inferiority by insinutating that you cannot win without resorting to pretending to be a cheating human. You cast your vote that it should be a Photoshop contest instead of a contest of real wits. In six games you've played this was your first chance at being a wolf, and instead of using everything you had learned as five humans to pass yourself off as one, you decided to "prove yourself human" through fake cheating. You wanted the humans to treat you like you were sharing a real PM, LD. So Squeek decided to treat you like you were sharing a real one too, and you got indignant about it. I, for one, think you got exactly what you deserved. You know better than this. 2-game ban. Anyway, I'm putting in my bid to run TWG IX with the "infiltration" rules...but if I do it won't start until Friday. In fact, I don't even think I'm going to call it TWG IX. But since I won't run it concurrently with a TWG, I guess a vote for me would be delaying TWG IX in favor of playing Infiltration for a game. |
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01-12-2005, 07:02 PM
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#11 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,665
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
Had LD recognized his error of ways and accepted his fate, I would have said 1 game ban. However, his indignance toward the host himself irritated me, and I think he deserves a 2 game ban
This game was pretty fun for me (being my first game of this caliber), but I'd still have to say my wolf solo in jTWG was more entertaining : ) . I'll probably be much more ready to make intelligent decisions next game. |
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01-12-2005, 07:05 PM
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#12 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 372
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
2 games. Where I come from, diplomacy, single cheating offense means banned for life. Sorry to bring that game up yet again :P.
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01-12-2005, 07:09 PM
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#13 | ||
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is against custom titles
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Texas
Age: 39
Posts: 7,371
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How in the HELL could that not be cheating, LD?
I move for a TWO GAME BAN for LD. In fact, I want to push for a three game ban simply because this was dealt with already with Tasselfoot, and I feel all subsequent punishments should be more and more severe. He didn't get the point after Tassel gets a two game ban, so maybe a harsher sentence will get him and all the others to think that much harder about trying to skirt the rules. Squeek's rules were slap-you-in-the-face clear, so LD's actions were downright insubordinate. --Guido http://andy.mikee385.com
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01-12-2005, 07:13 PM
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#14 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,517
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There were lots of things that went wrong for us (the wolves) this game:
My fellow wolves decided to wolf eb night two without even speaking with me. Of anyone that I would have wolfed that night, eb was last on my list - he had drawn far too much attention to himself to make a wolf attempt on him prudent. So he is guarded, and proven human, which allows him to form a massive alliance with the three remaining masons, the psychic, the guardian, and who knows who else. In most situations we would have been screwed right here, but LD was working his way into the alliance. Then LD got removed. Ouch. At least he managed to tell us who three of the four masons were before leaving. Not that that helped us much. The end of day two saw me get myself into a pinch. I had been busy with pretty much the entire weekend, which meant that I had to lay down my vote at the end of the game day. When I first saw the thread that night, the votes were more or less split evenly between Alain, Tsuteto, and LD. That's two fellow wolves and a guy who I really had no good reason to vote for. That's when I came up with my plan - I would get Tsuteto voted off. I discussed the idea with the rest of my wolf buddies, and everyone was fine with the idea - Tsuteto was making himself fairly obvious anyway. However, I didn't really know how to pull this off without looking suspicious. There were ten pages of posts to read carefully, and not enough time to read them in. Then Alain contacted me in a desperate attempt to get votes for Tsuteto. Perfect, I thought. I would let him convince me to vote for Tsuteto. But there were only two problems with this: One: Flypie placed a vote for Tsuteto while Alain and I were talking. This made my vote fairly meaningless, and somewhat suspicious even. But by the time she made her vote it was too late for me to back out of my idea. Two: I am a horrible actor. The fact that time was running out fast made me panic and completely botch the being convinced role that I was trying to pull. I knew that I had botched the act of mine, but I initially thought that Alain was buying it. If I had realized that he probably didn't, I would have wolfed him night three and I might have lived a little longer. Anyway, this game was interesting, but we were screwed in several different ways throughout the course of it. In particular, we may as well just of given up when LD was removed from the game. Oh yeah, I asked Whorli to kill Alain the last night simply because of this: NEIGH006: that's my goal. Although I know I'm going to get wolfed near the end just so that the wolves get a good laugh. That was the last line of the aim convo between Alain and I that Alain posted. Since he went out of his way to edit out the line when he posted the convo, I figured that I had to go through with it  |
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01-12-2005, 07:13 PM
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#15 | |
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Super Scooter Happy
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Location, Location.
Age: 39
Posts: 6,583
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RE: TWG VIII Postgame
Quote:
Thank God I was a mason (the only mason LD wasn't aware of, IIRC), since I was doing exactly what Kefit and whorli were doing but at least the rest of the group knew I was human. Good game to all.
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I watched clouds awobbly from the floor o' that kayak. Souls cross ages like clouds cross skies, an' tho' a cloud's shape nor hue nor size don't stay the same, it's still a cloud an' so is a soul. Who can say where the cloud's blowed from or who the soul'll be 'morrow? Only Sonmi the east an' the west an' the compass an' the atlas, yay, only the atlas o' clouds. |
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01-12-2005, 07:13 PM
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#16 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: It is a mystery.
Age: 33
Posts: 7,454
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I'm banned for life. My vote doesn't count.
QREEPY EDIT: I think you could probably take as stab at what I voted for, though.
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01-12-2005, 07:18 PM
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#17 |
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Guest
Posts: n/a
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Um, you're banned for life. Your vote doesn't count.
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01-12-2005, 07:19 PM
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#18 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NOW BLAHTOPIA
Posts: 1,662
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Chardish's post was really good, Guido's post is interesting, but I woudl say let this be the case for future things..
more importantly, I think something shoudl happen with Jurs, cuz in the end, while EB and flypie both agreed that i shoudl go to squeek, jurs thought i was an asshole for doing so and how dare I etcetera.. that shows someone that doesn't mind cheating in the least, and I know she is fine wihth cheating , and shoudl be banned, although personally I think she shoudln't be able to play for the reasons used with moogy emccky and others... I hope she doesn't want to play anymore here either
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01-12-2005, 07:22 PM
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#19 | ||
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FFR Player
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: It is a mystery.
Age: 33
Posts: 7,454
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hlh
Quote:
Quote:
But I was banned for reasons unrelated to cheating, which is most certainly what this "trial" is about, and therefore I see my opinion as valid enough in that respect. EDIT: But I digress.
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01-12-2005, 07:23 PM
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#20 |
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FFR Player
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,517
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Two more things:
People, please please PLEASE stop attacking players because they aren't very active. Some of us do have lives to live. The game only requires that we pop in once a day or so to check the thread, and that is all that some of us manage or care to do. And I am going to vote for a one game ban for LD, since, as far as I know, there was nothing but fake copy and pasting involved. |
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