Infiltration - Fission Mailed

[FOXHOUND-Magenta]

I'm not going to share anything I find (good or bad) unless it's an objective. What I will do is hopefully find a seer terminal and figure out who is who (since I'm a hacker I don't have to worry about Patriots screwing with terminals). I'm keeping a .txt file with all the rooms I've been to, what's been in them, and various other things I feel need written down. Once I seer somebody, I will say hey and send them the file. I think everybody should keep such a file for themselves, and when they seer people (if they're a hacker and can trust the terminal) to send that person the info. As more and more people are seered, the pool of information will grow larger and larger. But remember, DON'T TRUST A SEER TERMINAL UNLESS YOU ARE A HACKER. Also, don't trust a person who says they've seered you. Someone could easily lie about such a thing just to get your info. If they say they've seered you, find the terminal and check them yourself. If you're not a hacker, this leaves you at a huge disadvantage.

But yeah, be careful with whom and how you share your information. Keep it all with you and share it when you have mutual seerings. I just hope some people chose to be hacakers....

[FOXHOUND-Green]

Checking in. I think Magenta's and Gray's plans both sound good. It's good to see plans starting to develop. I am not sure where I will be heading yet :/

[FOXHOUND-Indigo]

Red, as it is clear, we do not need to lynch anyone at night, and so it is completely unecessary to lynch quiet people. People can be quiet all they want, and it does not harm us, only them. It just means that if they die, we won't be able to avenge them and it is their own fault. They are making themselves easy targets for patriots if they do not report in. I repeat, there is no reason for a wrongful lynching to occur, and a wrongful lynching will not occur. I, and I'm sure magenta and grey, and others will make absolutely sure of this.

And you are right in your third statement, red. No one needs to fear revealing your position, it will only be news to the humans, and that is who it will be helpful too. The wolves allready know where you ended up after movement, so you have nothing to lose by making it public to the agents as will.

There is still discussion as to whether it is preferable to state what has been found in a room publicly or not, but until we are sure oif the consequences of making all rooms public, we need everyone to to the same thing, to avoid confusion, so reveal the identity of no terminals unless we decide as a team that it is preferable.

[FOXHOUND-Magenta]

Red, there will be no confusion or wrongful lynchings. If somebody doesn't check in, we will check the room they were last in and see if they're there.

Also, a lot of the people who seem to never post do so because they have nothing to say. They read the thread and follow but don't have any useful input to share. Hence, I said that people need to post if for no other reason than to check in. If you have nothing to say, it doesn't matter. You checking in is important enough to post, and it only takes a couple minutes to get here and type "I'm still alive." Even the inactive people can do it.

[FOXHOUND-Brown]

Originally Posted by FOXHOUND-Indigo

No one needs to fear revealing your position, it will only be news to the humans, and that is who it will be helpful too. The wolves allready know where you ended up after movement, so you have nothing to lose by making it public to the agents as will.

This is not 100% true. While the Patriots will know where everyone is, they won't be told which person exactly is where. If they were told that, say, someone was in D3, they wouldn't know if it's you, me, or any of 10 other people.

Not that such is enough of a reason to dissuade people from telling everyone where they are.

[FOXHOUND-Maroon]

What kind of talk is that brown. This is a team mission, and no member of foxhound should talk like they would want to compromise the mission in order to afford some anonymity. I feel its fine to reveal your position.

I'm very worried about where this is headed.

This game looks really, really stacked in favor of the greens. Pretty much everyone is in consensus that the game can't be lost as long as no one agrees to kill each other.

I've been developing balance with one of the reds, and we've come up with a proposal to make the game more balanced.

Red kills are immediate. However, this means if 2 humans walk into a room together and no one dies, they both know they're human. This means that reds get their information on who's in their room early - and the red can chose to not use his kill and just appear as a normal person - thus leaving the opportunity for vigilanteism. (Because, after all, vigilanteism is the reason I allowed humans to kill in the first place. Having to make a judgment if the person is a red or not could really cause a lot of paranoia. People still might want to do the "no independent kill for any reason" rule, but it will seem a lot weaker when reds are far less of a threat.

Keep in mind various means could still be used to pinpoint the culprit. (Locators, history, validity check, etc.)

As it is now, no one is paranoid - only cautious. I don't think that makes for a very fun game.

So, do you want to try that this game or do it next game, after discussion? This is a voting issue, so cast your votes. Keep in mind that this will take a long time, even if the humans do win without a challenge. I think the proposed rule change would make the game more about trust again instead of about mutual neutrality, which is kind of what it is right now. In other words, the second run of this game is going to take a long, long time to get started. Like late February.

Please do not discuss this with anyone but me, and register your vote over AIM. This way the voting can't be used to incriminate people.

I apologize for interjecting like this, but remember that this is a brand-new game that has never been played before and isn't yet balanced. TWG was none of that when it was brought to FFR.

I have other balance suggestions, too, but all of them would require a restart of the game. I look forward to a lively postgame chat ; )

Remember, do not discuss this with anyone but me. If someone asks your opinion on it, refuse to give it.

-Chardish

[FOXHOUND-Brown]

Originally Posted by FOXHOUND-Maroon

What kind of talk is that brown. This is a team mission, and no member of foxhound should talk like they would want to compromise the mission in order to afford some anonymity. I feel its fine to reveal your position.

Like I said, it isn't enough of a reason not to reveal where you are. That "talk" is simply correcting a possible confusion with the rules.

[FOXHOUND-Teal]

Wow. Last time I came by here there was only one page of posts. Now I feel I should comment on them.

I agree completely with the "if you're human, don't kill for any reason" plan. It seems to hold together very well.

I was a little confused by the "if you find something, wait a few days to tell what it is" plan. I'd rather just do what I planned on from the beginning: Posting if I find a crucial part of the greens victory. I also plan on if I find a seer terminal, to inform the person who I seer'd that I seer'd them and then reveal all the other terminals that I've found that are any good to them. I'm unsure of what action we should take if we seer someone and it comes back red though. If we come out and say "I seer'd this person and it came back red," there are two possible outcomes:
1) The person who used the seer terminal could be trusted and the known red would be lynched.
2) The person who used the seer terminal could be branded as a red trying to fool the greens into lynching another green.
I'd like to hear all your thoughts on this subject.

Also, I plan on telling what room I'm in if I find myself in the same room as someone else. If there's no one else there, I don't plan on posting where I am, unless I find one of the ingredients for the green victory.

[FOXHOUND-Orange]

Okay, since the usefulness of specific roles keeps coming up, I want to know if it's best that we reveal them. The question of honesty arises, so I wanted to get your thoughts on the matter. That is, see if it's more beneficial for everyone to know everyone else's role than to give some information to the reds.

Knowing the Hackers will be good for later when we know where seer terminals (or any type, for that matter) are and need to check that they haven't been hacked. However, if most of us are hackers, the reds may not take the risk of hacking anything, thus rendering the Hackers useless.

Knowing who's a warrior and who's not before movement occurs would allow us to know whom we can post as sentries if we find a powerful terminal. This can be done over AIM to preserve secrecy if the information's out there, too. However, this allows the reds to know who would be a risk to kill and who wouldn't. That would put more stress on the reds if they knew that they'd have to make a joint effort to take out the warriors lest they leave them to roam freely.

Finally, knowing the sneakers would allow us to know who gathered information during alert mode, which is useful because the reds will surely be trying to trigger alert mode with the new rules change.

I have no problem revealing my role, but if someone can come up with a reason not to, I'd be happy to keep it to myself, too.

[FOXHOUND-Magenta]

If you seer someone and they turn out to be red, go back to the seer terminal a turn or two later and seer somebody else. Tell them to use the seer terminal and verify that whoever it was is a wolf.

[FOXHOUND-Teal]

Originally Posted by FOXHOUND-Magenta

If you seer someone and they turn out to be red, go back to the seer terminal a turn or two later and seer somebody else. Tell them to use the seer terminal and verify that whoever it was is a wolf.

What if this person who used the seer terminal first is a hacker? Then what?

On the plus side, I think it's safe to assume that all terminals today are hack free, so any info gotten from them can be trusted 100%.

[FOXHOUND-Magenta]

The point of getting somebody else to do it would be so that they trust you, not so that you both trust the terminal. Somebody else said that if somebody claimed another is a wolf they may be thought to be a wolf themselves.

The proposed rules change has been adopted - Patriots now have the option of making their kill before the other person knows they're in the room.

[FOXHOUND-Gray]

Ok, so with this new rule, what changes in strategy will we need to make? What I see is this:

We keep our policy of NO attempting to kill each other if we are in the same room. That way, it will STILL only be Patriots that kill us. We keep posting what room we are in and who else is there should another person be in the room.

WE CHECK IN EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT PHASE. Anyone who doesn't check in and is found to be alive will be assumed to be a Patriot. If someone doesn't check in, they have to be assumed dead, and steps should immediately be taken to find out who killed them and how.

If we all follow these guidelines (Magenta's originally, modified for this rule change), we will still win. Can I get everyone's opinion on following these? If you agree, please say something to the effect of "Excellent Gray, I agree to your terms and will aid in the completion of this mission."

Gray out.

[FOXHOUND-Black]

I noticed a potential small flaw in our plan. Say a person is (unknown to the rest of the group) away for the day and could not post, but is still able to get the commander his coordinates by the end of the day. If we consider him dead and hes not, we run into some problems.

So, should we make it known that all players must let all other players know if they will not be able to post? I think thats a good addition.

Oh, I also do not intend to kill anybody since we have all learned in past twg games that even though a person is suspicious to you, they are not to the rest of the group and are actually the 'good guys' being slightly stupid

[FOXHOUND-Gray]

Black, if someone knows that he is going to go radio silent for a long period of time, it is proper curtosy to inform those listening over the radio of the upcoming silence. Plus, if they have the time to relay their position to the Colonel, they damn well have the time to give an "All Systems Functioning" to the rest of us.

Gray out.

[FOXHOUND-Purple]

Call me paranoid, but I fear we may be making it incredibly easy for Patriots to behave just like agents with some of these ideas. Stating where you will be is an excellent plan, but we have to keep in mind that anyone can lie about anything in this situation.

I think we should avoid stating publicly what rooms we find. It is very, very easy to lie about what is in a room. I, personally, do not plan to share anything I have found unless I am damn certain I am speaking to an Agent. I realize that I'm going to have to trust all of you, but that may take me a little time.

[FOXHOUND-Maroon]

"Excellent Gray, I agree to your terms and will aid in the completion of this mission."
I don't know if its enough though and we need to think of ways of further refining the plan to be able to make a check-in system or something. I'm not entirely sure the best way to proceed, but I will be thinking on it.

[FOXHOUND-Gray]

Purple, this is what seems best after talking to Maroon, Indigo, and Magenta: Share nothing of what is found in one's room. Only after using seer terminals should one be willing to trust another and share information. If someone finds a seer terminal, use it. If the person you seer is one of us, contact them, tell them the room for them to go to and have them seer you. Then you two can trust each other and work towards forming a network. Just be wary, because if a Patriot finds the seer terminal and hacks it, when you go to check it, it will reveal that they are with us.

Also, NEVER reveal what room you are heading to before you go. That is just plain suicide.

Gray Out.