Old 12-11-2019, 10:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

tbh the biggest proponent of rates +1 counting right now is

we have an actual ffr ranking system that isn't avg rank anymore.
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Old 12-12-2019, 05:45 AM   #22
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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tbh the biggest proponent of rates +1 counting right now is

we have an actual ffr ranking system that isn't avg rank anymore.
Care to elaborate ?
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

avg rank is no longer the forefront of importance when it comes to ffr rank, now we have calculated top scores instead.

avg rank just becomes this long and arduous grind that only will keep growing in the future to maintain, and instead of asking people "wow this is unfair to people who grinded out levelranks", why not ask "how can we change ffr design to make ffr more appealing to stay around"
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:50 AM   #24
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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avg rank is no longer the forefront of importance when it comes to ffr rank, now we have calculated top scores instead.

avg rank just becomes this long and arduous grind that only will keep growing in the future to maintain, and instead of asking people "wow this is unfair to people who grinded out levelranks", why not ask "how can we change ffr design to make ffr more appealing to stay around"
Simple, make new metrics. Have a "Songs passed" or a "Files AAA'd on 1.5" (to keep rates simple), or keep track of the AAA of each files on the highest rate (for each player) which only requires double the data (nbd).

I personally enjoy that avrank grind and it motivates me to play the latest files too. If your way to make this game more appealing is to make avrank grinding easier/faster, then mate you need to work on your game design ideas; that's a shitty solution as it not only adds nothing to the game, but yes it does remove some of the accomplishment of the people who grinded it as initially intended.

Dont fix it if it aint broken, but in this case it's worse you'd break something that's already perfectly fine just because you dont enjoy the grind. Like I said to the OP, change your focus, that's it, work on something else that the game offers (FCs, AAAs, Tier Points, Grandtotal, Skill Level (!!!), heck even stepping charts).
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

i think if you're calling it a "shitty solution" you're already in the "i don't want to be convinced" camp, which is kinda unfortunate

what rates counting adds to the game is people going back and revisiting files that they would pretty much never do otherwise.
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Old 12-12-2019, 08:08 AM   #26
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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i think if you're calling it a "shitty solution" you're already in the "i don't want to be convinced" camp, which is kinda unfortunate

what rates counting adds to the game is people going back and revisiting files that they would pretty much never do otherwise.
Ok let me answer to each sentence to be even clearer.

1. You say that because I call it a shitty solution, it must be because I don't want to be convince.

Ok, did you read any of my arguments in this thread ? I don't see replies to any of them except SaxRunner, to whom I replied in hopes to clarify. I called it shitty because of reasons I explicitely stated, and you avoid them. Sorry but I think you're in that very bucket of not wanting to be convinced atm.

2. It would make people revisit files, which they don't do right now.

Yes, it might, purely because they would get avrank out of it, since that's the only thing the proposed change does. You take away a bit of the accomplishment of some to make that same, grindy accomplishment easiers for other. Again, that's a shitty solution. I hate to repeat myself as I Just mentionned the "why" in my previous post, but here: You can simply add new metrics which use rates, and suddenly you make everyone happy and end this debate. Let avrank be, it's pretty simple no ?
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Old 12-12-2019, 08:32 AM   #27
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

Here are the different types of people affected:

1. "I want rates to count toward something, to add diversity in metrics"
2. "I want to be rewarded for playing files that are slow for me, without it being boring"
3. "I want to keep the avrank metric as is, as I get satisfaction from the grind that I go/went through"

All three are very logical and they're opinions.
There are solutions (I mentionned a few) to satisfy all three.
Changing avrank does not.
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Old 12-12-2019, 08:34 AM   #28
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

I would definitely love a metric for rates to revisit some older files that I haven't played in literally a decade.

How that's implemented... not sure! I agree that I don't believe it should impact your tier points/avg rank/skill at 1.0 but more of a separate queue (i.e. in League having a Solo Queue ranking, Teams Ranking, 3v3 ranking).

Would be cool to see a list of scores at each rate mod.
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Old 12-12-2019, 10:37 AM   #29
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

ITT:

Everyone: Yeah I think rates would be cool, I dont really mind but its alright I guess either way

People who have already grinded all the easy song AAAs: MUH ACCOMPLISHMENTS U CANT TAKE EM AWAY!! DEY TOOK ERR COMMPLISHMENTS
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Old 12-12-2019, 10:50 AM   #30
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

You: cant make an argument on either side so might as well attempt to laugh at the opposing opinion for no reason so maybe people will follow me

Nah dude
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Old 12-12-2019, 10:59 AM   #31
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

Yeah it should count of course.
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:16 AM   #32
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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On a serious note, I do think Rates above 1x should count to increase enjoyment of the game. It gives another avenue to interact more with FFR and increase activity around here. I liked Etienne's video about rates awhile back, it had some good points.
In a separate leaderboard yeah. They already give GTS and credits, so it "counts" in that aspect. But I think people have been asking for rate leaderboards for a while.
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:21 AM   #33
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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You: cant make an argument on either side so might as well attempt to laugh at the opposing opinion for no reason so maybe people will follow me

Nah dude
cant really talk shit here though when you had just looked at yoshls post and called it a shitty idea. That's not very helpful either compared to dingles post
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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cant really talk shit here though when you had just looked at yoshls post and called it a shitty idea. That's not very helpful either compared to dingles post
I'll take that blame, can't say I'm not tired to provide arguments without them being adressed, especially when the person tries to argue the opposite. I do my best to explain why I believe every pros that "rates count for avrank" has aren't real pros (or at least are suboptimal).

Nobody Has to reply to my arguments though, I know.
I apologize, Yoshl. I hope however that if we're to debate further, you carefully read my points and debate those too.

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Old 12-12-2019, 11:44 AM   #35
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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In a separate leaderboard yeah. They already give GTS and credits, so it "counts" in that aspect. But I think people have been asking for rate leaderboards for a while.
whenenver someone brings this up people always ask how many there would be, like, would it be every .1 or .05 etc... osu solves this by just making the only rates 0.75, 1.0 and 1.5, but their way is bad in a million ways that I won't get into
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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whenenver someone brings this up people always ask how many there would be, like, would it be every .1 or .05 etc... osu solves this by just making the only rates 0.75, 1.0 and 1.5, but their way is bad in a million ways that I won't get into
The number isnt a big issue; velo checks how much data is fine to save and that gives us how many rates we can have. The UI would likely be the same for .1 or .001 increments, unless we want to display more than one rate per page of the leaderboard. Also obviously we can't have those scores count towards Skill Level in any legit way, but having just these leaderboards of rated scores would be nice.
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Old 12-12-2019, 11:59 AM   #37
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

imma grab me a ton of x1.42069 rate scores
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Old 12-12-2019, 04:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

A change/improvement to the current skill rating formula that takes rates into account is something I've played with before. One assumption of the skill rating formula is that all songs with the same difficulty are equally difficult. Clearly on an individual level this isn't going to be true, but we have a team of people that makes sure it's approximately true otherwise. This becomes a lot messier when you throw rates into the mix.

My impression from talking to people more experienced than me was that rates cannot be assumed to affect all songs of the same difficulty the same. So for example: if I wanted to make a formula that made a statement like: "Song X, which has difficulty 50, if played at a rate of 1.2x will have a difficulty of 60", then, lacking any other information, that statement would have to be true for ALL songs of difficulty 50, or else the formula would never work. So, unless we do think rates affect all songs of the same difficulty the same, a skill rating formula that takes rates into account would need more information than just the song's difficulty, the rate, and a players score on the song.

There are a variety of data science-y ways in which you could get some data to inform this system, some more viable than others.

I found an old internal staff document that outlined a method of having people judge difficulties of rates, so they could be treated like any other song, but it introduces some difficult technical problems, as well as a massively increased workload for judgement staff.

While I think that the current skill rating formula was a huge step in the right direction (if I do say so myself), and has delivered a lot of enjoyment, it's far from the ideal. I hope that once some other more pressing matters are addressed the staff team will get a chance to push forward in this area.

Incidentally, if anyone here is looking for some way of tracking their improvement over time, but doesn't feel like the current FFR site provides enough control or granularity, consider trying: FFR Tracker.
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Old 12-13-2019, 01:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

I'd be for songs recording scores with a rate above 1 from a speedrunning perspective.

I can picture people attempting to marathon this game if they can shorten the overall length of the songs while recording scores.

Considering the overall activity in this game; anything that can help with replay value should be considered tbh.

At least, that's how I view this specifically.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:46 AM   #40
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Default Re: Can Song Rates Over 1 Count?

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I'd be for songs recording scores with a rate above 1 from a speedrunning perspective.

I can picture people attempting to marathon this game if they can shorten the overall length of the songs while recording scores.

Considering the overall activity in this game; anything that can help with replay value should be considered tbh.

At least, that's how I view this specifically.
Adding speedrunning value to this game is essentially adding a new feature. Therefore, you don't need to modify an existing feature (avrank) to support it; just make a new one (the ones I mentionned a few times).

I think it's important to be clear when stating your opinion here now, as the OP was specifically referring to "rates count for avrank", and others just wanted to say they want "rates to count for something" which is different.
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