Old 10-28-2011, 08:15 PM   #1
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Default Classical Music Attribution

Can we get a solid system of classifying the classical music on FFR? It's annoying the way every song has a different system- I sort by "author" and Chopin files show up in two places (F. Chopin and Chopin).

Titling songs the way classical music is supposed to be classified would make it look a lot more professional, not to mention making searching a lot easier.
I can make a full list of the names that should be changed if people think this is a decent idea. Currently it just looks very sloppy to someone like me who is more used to classical music.

EDIT- Here is the final list of what Subin and I had in mind, along with many of your suggestions in the thread:
One Minute Waltz
"Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 (F.Chopin)

Minute Waltz v2
"Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 V2 (F.Chopin)

Revolutionary Etude
"Revolutionary" Etude Op.10, No.12 (F.Chopin)

Etude in E Major
"Tristesse" Etude Op.10, No.3 -Shortened- (F.Chopin)

Op.10 No.9
Etude Op.10, No.9 (F.Chopin)

Winter Wind Etude
"Winter Wind" Etude Op.25, No.11 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Hisamori)

Black Key Etude
"Black Key" Etude Op.10, No.5 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Krueger)

Prelude No. 7
Prelude Op.28, No.7 (F.Chopin)

Molto Vivace
Transcendental Etude No.2 (F.Liszt)

La Campanella
"La Campanella" Grand Paganini Etude No.3 (F.Liszt)

Grand Galop Chromatique
Grand Galop Chromatique (F.Liszt, pf. A.Laviano)

Mephisto Waltz
Mephisto Waltz No.1 (F.Liszt, arr. Xandertrax)

Hungarian Dance #7
Hungarian Dance No.7 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Soltau)

Hungarian Dance #5
Hungarian Dance No.5 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Batty)

Turkish March
Turkish March Op.113, No.4 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. T.Leen)

Moonlight Sonata
"Moonlight" Sonata #14 Op.27-2 Mvt.1 -Shortened- (L.v.Beethoven)

Sonata Quasi Una Fantasie Mo.3
"Moonlight" Sonata #14 Op.27-2 Mvt.3 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. B.Hisamori)

Humoresque No. 7
Humoresque Op.101, No.7 (A.Dvorak)

Caprice
Caprice No.5 (N.Paganini, pf. S.Mintz)

Flight of the Bumblebee
Flight of the Bumblebee (N.Rimsky-Korsakov)

Rondo Alla Turca
"Rondo Alla Turca" No.11 K331 Mvt.3 (W.A.Mozart, pf. P.Glass)

Rondo Alla Turca V2
"Rondo Alla Turca" No.11 K331 Mvt.3 V2 (W.A.Mozart)

Can Can (Piano Version)
"Can Can" Orphee aux enfers -Piano- (J.Offenbach)

Badinerie
"Badinerie" Suite No.2-7 BWV 1067 -Piano- (J.S.Bach)

Tambourin Chinois
Tambourin Chinois Op.3 (F.Kreisler)

Maple Leaf Rag
Maple Leaf Rag (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb)

Fig Leaf Rag
Fig Leaf Rag (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb)

The Entertainer
The Entertainer (S.Joplin, pf. B.R.Tubb)

Jelly Roll Blues
Jelly Roll Blues (J.R.Morton, pf. B.R.Tubb)
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

I support this 100% - it might involve changing the name of a few things in game but it definitely looks neater and more professional.

Great suggestion.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

Sounds legit and indeed looks a bit more coherent. I know nothing about that notation though... I always thought what we had now was ok. :S

To how many songs does this problem apply to?

So far, I believe:

Maple Leaf Rag
Fig Leaf Rag
The Entertainer
Hungarian Dance #7
Tambourin Chinois (??)
Jelly Roll Blues
Turkish March
Black Key Etude
Op. 10 No.09
Mephisto Waltz
Grand Galop Chromatique
La Campanella
Winter Wind Etude
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

If people think this is too archaic one possibility is to put the common title in the front:

Winter Wind Etude (A minor, Op. 25 No. 11)

This is not technically wrong and is much easier for people to read.

@MarioNintendo nearly every song by a classical composer in FFR has some sort of attribution error lmao. It's been bugging me for a while...
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

I tried to list those I could find.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

If you're wondering where I'm getting this from, I use the attribution listed on IMSLP. I generally trust it as a pretty good source of music information.

EDIT- I'll have to check but I think the ragtime pieces are attributed correctly. Not sure about Tambourin Chinois, I'd have to look around the internets for information about that one most likely. The rest all have minor issues, yeah.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

100% support. Classification of pieces would improve the "classical genre" and make it look more professional, nonetheless more stomach-able.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

What about One Minute Waltz (which, to my knowledge is Waltz 64 Op. 1 - "Petit Chien)?

I don't know about Molto Vivace. Also, Op. 10 No. 9 - does it have some sort of name too?
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

Going through and finding eveyrthing that needs changing. Really hoping someone takes the time to actually change these, I don't care which of the three formats you use as all of them are significantly better than what we have now.

Current Name
Common Name Last format (technically correct)
alternatively Common Name First format
alternatively Common Name No Key format
Proper Artist attribution
notes:

------------------------------------

One Minute Waltz
Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 in D♭ major "Minute Waltz"
alternatively Minute Waltz in D♭ major (Op. 64, No. 1)
alternatively Minute Waltz Op. 64, No. 1
F. Chopin
notes: Would be lovely to find the performer.

Minute Waltz v2
Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 in D♭ major "Minute Waltz" v2
alternatively Minute Waltz in D♭ major (Op. 64, No. 1) v2
alternatively Minute Waltz Op. 64, No. 1 v2
F. Chopin
notes: Would be lovely to find the performer.

Revolutionary Etude
Etude Op. 10, No. 12 in C minor "Revolutionary"
alternatively Revolutionary Etude in C minor (Op. 10, No. 12)
alternatively Revolutionary Etude Op. 10, No. 12
F. Chopin
notes: Would be lovely to find the performer.

Etude in E Major
Etude Op. 10, No. 3 in E major
alternatively Etude in E major (Op. 10, No. 3)
alternatively Etude Op. 10, No. 3
F. Chopin
notes: Don't capitalize major/minor in the key name. This song is dramatically cut and perhaps that is worth noting. Also needs a performer, perhaps this is another performed by Xandertrax himself?
This is sometimes called the "Tristesse'" (sadness) or "Farewell" Etude though neither was used by Chopin himself- not sure if we want to use one of these common names or not.

Op.10 No.9
Etude Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
alternatively Etude in F minor (Op. 10, No. 9)
alternatively Etude Op. 10, No. 9
F. Chopin
notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. This really doesn't have a common name (other than being known as the "easiest" of the Chopin Etudes lol)

Winter Wind Etude
Etude Op. 25, No. 11 in A minor "Winter Wind"
alternatively Winter Wind Etude in A minor (Op. 25, No. 11)
alternatively Winter Wind Etude Op. 25, No. 11
F. Chopin pf. B. Hisamori

Black Key Etude
Etude Op. 10, No. 5 in G♭ major "Black Key"
alternatively Black Key Etude in G♭ major (Op. 10, No. 5)
alternatively Black Key Etude Op. 10, No. 5
F. Chopin pf. B. Krueger

Prelude No. 7
Prelude Op. 28, No. 7 in A major
alternatively Prelude in A major (Op. 28, No. 7)
alternatively Prelude Op. 28, No. 7
F. Chopin pf. Xandertrax

Molto Vivace
Transcendental Etude S. 139, No. 2 in A minor
alternatively Transcendental Etude in A minor (S. 139, No. 2)
alternatively Transcendental Etude S. 139, No. 2
F. Liszt
notes: "Molto Vivace" is merely the instructions for the style and speed of the piece, it has little to do with the name lol. Missing a performer; this sounds rather MIDI-ish to me so it might be hard to find.
This is technically from Études d'exécution transcendante, but I'm being realistic with my English here. The common name for this, if any, would be Fusées (Rockets).

La Campanella
Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3 in G♯ minor "La Campanella"
alternatively Grand Paganini Etude in G♯ minor (S. 141, No.3) "La Campanella"
alternatively Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3 "La Campanella"
alternatively La Campanella (Grand Paganini Etude S. 141, No.3)
alternatively simply La Campanella
F. Liszt
notes: It is difficult to know how technical to be with the name of this piece, as it is SO widely known merely as La Campanella, so I gave a few options, starting with the most technical. Which you use depends on the format chosen for the other songs. Once again I was realistic with English, instead of using Grandes études de Paganini. w_c mentioned he had a friend master a MIDI for this recording, it would be great to get said friend's name as a performer attribution.

Grand Galop Chromatique
Grand Galop Chromatique, S. 219
alternatively simply Grand Galop Chromatique
F. Liszt pf. A. Laviano
notes: Basically already correct. Hardly even worth changing, though the format for the performer's name needs a quick fix.

Mephisto Waltz
Mephisto Waltz No. 1, S. 514
alternatively Mephisto Waltz No. 1
F. Liszt pf. Xandertrax
notes: This song is cut (the full version as Liszt wrote it was 10+ minutes), not sure if that is worth noting.
A subtle difference here is that the No. 1 goes before S. 514, as Liszt wrote multiple Mephisto Waltzes (and even a Mephisto Polka!) over many different years. This makes the numbering distinct from the type of numbering uses for pieces within an individual opus.

Hungarian Dance #7

Hungarian Dance #5

Turkish March

Moonlight Sonata

Sonata Quasi Una Fantasia Mov.3
notes: Don't forget to change the associated token text as well.

Humoresque No. 7

Caprice

Flight of the Bumblebee

Rondo Alla Turca

Rondo Alla Turca V2
notes: Is there a standard format for the "v" in v2s? Some are "v2" and others are "V2" lol... I went with lowercase using "vrofl" as my guideline but I'm not sure here.

Can Can (Piano Version)

Badinerie


Additional songs to check: Leaves In The Wind, Tambourin Chinois, ragtime songs.


additional notes: Etude is actually spelled Étude- not sure if FFR's font can handle the accent but if the character exists in the font it's worth using for accuracy!
If the ♭♯ characters are not supported, spell it "-flat" or "-sharp" i.e. D-flat, C-sharp


This is clearly still a work in progress, it's taking me a few hours to get all this right so bear with me lol :P
EDIT- Okay I'm getting a little tired of this... I have finished half of the songs. If an admin comes in here and promises to change them once I'm done, then I will promise to finish this within a day. How about that?
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Old 10-29-2011, 07:01 AM   #10
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

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Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
Op.10 No.9
Etude Op. 10, No. 9 in F minor
alternatively Etude in F minor (Op. 10, No. 9)
alternatively Etude Op. 10, No. 9
F. Chopin
notes: Would be lovely to find the performer. This really doesn't have a common name (other than being known as the "easiest" of the Chopin Etudes lol)
iirc it's my own midi-file played by the Edirol Orchestral vst in Fruity Loops
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Old 10-29-2011, 01:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

Wow thank you, that's a great list.

One thing I was grappling with was how to include the common names appropriately. Let's face it, the community has gotten used to calling the Winter Wind Etude by that name, so it seems unnecessarily archaic not to include it somewhere in the name. But the list as you have it is very good. Hopefully someone comes in here and actually works with us to get them changed >_<

p.s. awesome video of Caprice No.5! I had no idea that performance was on Youtube
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Old 10-31-2011, 10:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

There is no common name for Chopin Op. 10 No.9

My only huge gripe with your list is to not put "Molto Vivace" for Transcendental Etude No.2. Out of all the misnamed files that is the worst- it's truly WRONG; it has nothing to do with the name of the song in any context and is not worth preserving IMO. Other people's opinions about this would be nice- I'd say if we have to use a common name, use Fusées/Rockets, but I'd actually prefer just Transcendental Etude No.2.

I'm also leaning towards an abbreviation for the movement rather than the name of the movement, i.e. Mvt. 3 instead of "Presto agitato" for Moonlight Sonata. Again it's less technically correct but more in-line with how a non-music person would name the piece. I think some concessions have to be made for accessibility... though on the other hand it does look a little goofy >_<. It's worth discussing though because I'm not sure why you went with the movement name system.
(p.s. I'm pretty sure the Alla Turca is Mvt.3 so that's what I put but I didn't check lol)

Also went with "Shortened" over "Short version" - it's not technically a "version" of the song, more a "perversion" (lol I'm so funny)
Anyway "shortened" gets the idea across better IMO- why did you use different words?
Also, am I correct in understanding that Mephisto Waltz No.1 is not tagged -Shortened- (even though it most certainly is shorter than the full piece) because it has been marked as "arranged" by Xandertrax?

I'm pretty sure Badinerie is the 7th movement of Suite no.2, is that worth marking? I added it in but I'm not entirely sure it's correct.
Also, I didn't add this in but should we credit SKG_Scintill as the performer of Chopin Etude Op.10, No.9? He said so above...
Shortened Philip Glass to P.Glass too.

Anyway this is what I propose, similar to what you had really. What do you think of the changes?



One Minute Waltz
"Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 (F.Chopin)

Minute Waltz v2
"Minute" Waltz Op.64, No.1 v2 (F.Chopin)

Revolutionary Etude
"Revolutionary" Etude Op.10, No.12 (F.Chopin)

Etude in E Major
"Tristesse" Etude Op.10, No.3 -Shortened- (F.Chopin)

Op.10 No.9
Etude Op.10, No.9 (F.Chopin)

Winter Wind Etude
"Winter Wind" Etude Op.25, No.11 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Hisamori)

Black Key Etude
"Black Key" Etude Op.10, No.5 (F.Chopin, pf. B.Krueger)

Prelude No. 7
Prelude Op.28, No.7 (F.Chopin, pf. Xandertrax)

Molto Vivace
Transcendental Etude No.2 (F.Liszt)

La Campanella
"La Campanella" Grand Paganini Etude No.3 (F.Liszt)

Grand Galop Chromatique
Grand Galop Chromatique (F.Liszt, pf. A.Laviano)

Mephisto Waltz
Mephisto Waltz No.1 (F.Liszt, arr.Xandertrax)

Hungarian Dance #7
Hungarian Dance No.7 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Soltau)

Hungarian Dance #5
Hungarian Dance No.5 (J.Brahms, pf. J.Batty)

Turkish March
Marcia Alla Turca Op.113, No.4 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. T.Leen)

Moonlight Sonata
"Moonlight" Sonata No.14-Op.27 No.2 Mvt.1 -Shortened- (L.v.Beethoven)

Sonata Quasi Una Fantasie Mo.3
"Moonlight" Sonata No.14-Op.27 No.2 Mvt.3 (L.v.Beethoven, pf. B.Hisamori)

Humoresque No. 7
Humoresque Op.101, No.7 (A.Dvorak)

Caprice
Caprice No.5 (N.Paganini, pf. S.Mintz)

Flight of the Bumblebee
Flight of the Bumblebee (N.Rimsky-Korsakov)

Rondo Alla Turca
"Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 (W.A.Mozart, pf. P.Glass)

Rondo Alla Turca V2
"Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2 (W.A.Mozart)

Can Can (Piano Version)
"Can Can" Orphee aux enfers -Piano- (J.Offenbach)

Badinerie
"Badinerie" Suite No.2 BWV 1067 Mvt.7 -Piano- (J.S.Bach)

Tambourin Chinois
Tambourin Chinois Op.3 (F.Kreisler)
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Old 11-1-2011, 04:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

I don't mind not being listed as performer, given that I could also record myself playing it, at which point I would be the actual performer. Right now it's more "performed by EDIROL Orchestral"
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Old 11-1-2011, 04:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

The person that mastered la campanella was sleeplessdrgn btw
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Old 11-1-2011, 10:41 AM   #15
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Now we need someone with authority.
*ahem*


Pretty please?
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Old 11-1-2011, 12:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

I like the idea of organizing classical music more, but I worry the proposal is being way too technical. For instance, there are songs whose names will be changed too drastically, like Molto Vivace, which has been known as such for so long that I'd say it would actually be a really bad decision to change it now. Also, a lot of these names get really technical to the point where songs basically have several ID numbers attached to them, numbers which don't provide any useful info to someone who isn't a scholar of classical music.

I mean, honestly, ""Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2"? That's too long to show up in its entirety in the song menu (keep in mind it's very important that the v2 is shown in a clear place to distinguish the versions of the song), and the extra numbers and data essentially mean nothing to someone who isn't a scholar of Mozart's classical repertoire. From my point of view, "Rondo Alla Turca" is the common name of the song, and "Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3" is just information about the song's style and origins, which can be easily looked up with a Google search for anyone who's interested. If you're going to include all that lookup data you might as well write "Toxiferous Dystopia NG115042 Op.10 (cut)" too. But if you really want to include information like that, it would probably be better to put it in with the author (e.g.: "Mozart (No.11 K331 Mvt.3) pf. Philip Glass") or the Song Style field (e.g.: "Classical - No.11 K331 Mvt.3").
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Old 11-1-2011, 12:50 PM   #17
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

I'd argue that we are being that technical with other songs too...
To use your Newgrounds example, {Rose} is in fact a different song from Rose. We'd be doing a disservice to cornandbeans by not properly labeling his song, and it's similar for classical music.


Putting the opus and number in the Song Style field is a very good idea, though.

Some titles I still feel should be changed (Molto Vivace has nothing to do with the name of the song, I mean it's as if you called Blue Army as "Techno Music" umm no, that's not the name of the song)
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Old 11-1-2011, 01:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

Rondo Alla Turca really needs to be called that otherwise far less people will play it because they won't know what it is. What about just "Rondo Alla Turca" followed by the K number?

Also I disagree with putting usernames as "performers" when the music is a MIDI file or remastering etc. That's not performing. But that's just my Op.inion :P
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Old 11-1-2011, 01:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Kynosaur View Post
Rondo Alla Turca really needs to be called that otherwise far less people will play it because they won't know what it is. What about just "Rondo Alla Turca" followed by the K number?
Not sure if you looked at my final list but I proposed changing it to "Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3. As you can see the common name is right there, so there will be no confusion.

The only ones that are changing dramatically are Turkish March (to Marcia Alla Turca, which I think is not too bad), Etude in E Major to "Tristesse" Etude, and Molto Vivace, which I've already explained is just a horrible mis-naming to begin with. Everything else has the name by which FFR is used to calling it, PLUS the correct information.
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Originally Posted by Kynosaur View Post
Also I disagree with putting usernames as "performers" when the music is a MIDI file or remastering etc. That's not performing. But that's just my Op.inion :P
There are no usernames as performers atm. Only Xandertrax once, credited as an arranger because the version of Mephisto Waltz No.1 in FFR is not the same as Liszt's original, i.e. Xandertrax arranged it.
I suppose we could take Xandertrax out of the performer attribution entirely and label it as -Shortened-, not entirely sure why subin went with this method but it was still technically correct so I went with it.

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Originally Posted by qqwref View Post
I mean, honestly, ""Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2"? That's too long to show up in its entirety in the song menu (keep in mind it's very important that the v2 is shown in a clear place to distinguish the versions of the song)
The length of the text field on the legacy engine is definitely a valid issue. Not sure what we would do about this, as it's caused other songs to be mis-labeled as well (Of course you need... need me is labeled wrong, the true name of that song is stupidly long lol)
I'd argue that we should change the names AND find a way to make more space on the engine, but maybe that's not possible. I'd love if someone more admin-ish could weigh in on this, *wink wink*
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Old 11-3-2011, 07:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Classical Music Attribution

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Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
The only ones that are changing dramatically are Turkish March (to Marcia Alla Turca, which I think is not too bad)
Hang on a bit. That's just a translation issue, and since this is a largely English speaking community we should use an English name if there is one. In the case of classical pieces it's in our best interest to use a labeling that is easiest for people to find/understand - that's why we're using common names in the first place, no?

EDIT: I have a feeling that the "Marcia Alla Turca" name was not favored because Beethoven was Italian (I mean, he isn't ) but because Italian was essentially the dominant language of music at the time and there was no reason to buck convention. I'd argue that it shows no more disrespect to translate the name into English than if we were to translate Newton's books into English from the original Latin.

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Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
Not sure what we would do about this, as it's caused other songs to be mis-labeled as well (Of course you need... need me is labeled wrong, the true name of that song is stupidly long lol)
I'd argue that we should change the names AND find a way to make more space on the engine, but maybe that's not possible.
Well, here's an idea: allow very long names, but if the names are too long we'd shorten them on the engine in a specific way. I'd suggest to include as much of the start of the name as we can, then " ... " and the last 5ish characters. So Piano Concerto 1 'ANTI-ARES' (For Kirby) could be written as "Piano Concerto 1 ... Kirby)" in the song list. Another alternative would be to simply have a shortened display name that would show in the song menu/list, with the full name showing on the results screen. Of course there would still be finite length, so we should choose names that are short while still being properly descriptive (which, IMO, for classical music, means having enough information for someone to find the exact song used in the chart).
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Originally Posted by jimerax View Post
Repeating, please no retarded files that aren't even going with the song

Last edited by qqwref; 11-3-2011 at 07:15 PM..
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