Old 10-16-2019, 11:34 PM   #21
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

coming from someone that isn't naturally good at rhythm games, i'd say that i agree with the statement that a lot of high level players overlook some of the patterns that would be considered difficult to a D3/4. it took me years to go from barely being able to get under 50g FC on sound of my dream rmx (a 17 on the current scale) to where i am now. and now that i've made it, i can honestly say that D7's tend to rank files through a very biased lens that reflect their own skillsets.

like, i can't AAA for shit. i legit still have an issue trying to consistently AAA some D4 songs because the patterns are pretty wonky, while others files will be ez pz lemon squeezy but ranked higher just cuz they are faster.

now this is just completely my opinion and DOES NOT apply to all D7/8 players, but a lot of us tend to skip over the fact that these weird ass patterns in lower ranked songs took a long time to learn and didn't just come naturally to us either.

edit: i just want to make clear that my statement is not a personal attack on anyone. k thx
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:35 PM   #22
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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Originally Posted by xXOpkillerXx View Post
I dont think you can correctly argue the difficulty of any file, easy or hard, in terms that me (or owa, or any other high lvl player) can't understand. Therefore, it's only a matter of assessing difficulty differently depending the on a file's difficulty range. It's really that simple.
If it's that simple, why does it commonly appear to be understood that it hasn't happened?
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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coming from someone that isn't naturally good at rhythm games, i'd say that i agree with the statement that a lot of high level players overlook some of the patterns that would be considered difficult to a D3/4. it took me years to go from barely being able to get under 50g FC on sound of my dream rmx (a 17 on the current scale) to where i am now. and now that i've made it, i can honestly say that D7's tend to rank files through a very biased lens that reflect their own skillsets.

like, i can't AAA for shit. i legit still have an issue trying to consistently AAA some D4 songs because the patterns are pretty wonky, while others files will be ez pz lemon squeezy but ranked higher just cuz they are faster.

now this is just completely my opinion and DOES NOT apply to all D7/8 players, but a lot of us tend to skip over the fact that these weird ass patterns in lower ranked songs took a long time to learn and didn't just come naturally to us either.
Do you not consider at all the possibility that you are better at speed stuff than technical ? "Weird ass patterns" is very vague. Also D7 very likely do the opposite of judge diff 50 files based on their skillset, as they excel in everything such a file requires. A level 50 who's good at jacks though might very well judge that same file with a bias towards jacks being easier.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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If it's that simple, why does it commonly appear to be understood that it hasn't happened?
Because very, very few people actually met the criteria of (1) having the time for this "job", (2) putting in the effort of somewhat defining boundaries/structure for their decisions on difficulties and (3) have the experience to do that.

I'm not saying we should absolutely have a high lvl player do it, I'm arguing that high lvl players are usually better suited for the job.
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Old 10-17-2019, 12:33 AM   #25
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

Many people use the typical "difficulty is subjective" line when they can't or don't want to argue further on difficulty. Yes difficulty is subjective, however that doesn't mean it shouldn't have structure. The most common points I see lately are about bpms + patterns (and occasionally stamina/length). This combination has its subjectivity (just like any other basis of difficulty) but it's debatable in terms of what's harder than what. Lower end files are no different: some combinations are harder than others. Fun fact, Etterna uses pretty much that kind of structure, split into categories.

Lets debate this example of yours:
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So consider the following scenario. A new file is released, and ten D6/7/8 players all rate it a 52. Ten D2/3/4 players rate it 51, 54, 56, 58, 54, 60, 50, 61, 57, and 57. One might surmise that by quantifiable standards, it must be a 52. All of the more skilled/experienced players determined it to be such, likely by calculating backward from bpm and patterns, and comparing it against their own expectations for such a file. The lower division estimates were all over the place, but averaged to 55.8. I'd argue that assessment is closer, because the file is meant to be representative and demonstrative of their skillsets. Yes, the lower you go, the more gaps there will be in skillsets, and thus the larger the potential for variation and outliers. But difficulty itself is, by everyone's contention, subjective, and thus matters most of all by comparison to other files. Not just in terms of speed and length and stamina, but in how comfortable and playable it is for the player it challenges. At some point, playability needs to become the key concern--and that's something lost as one gets further from a given file presenting any sort of challenge.
First of all, gotta remind people that difficulty is AAA based currently. If all these 10 players rate the file so high, that's perfectly fine... if at least one of them can say why. You don't consider the fact that these players who "fight" the file probably don't have the AAA. Thinking this is elitist is just refusing to accept that more experienced/skilled players will likely have a better understanding of difficulty structure in general. A flagrant example of how it should go is the later rounds of D8 in the last OT. Many players in high end, including myself, tried to give the files proper ratings, but Silly and Etienne's opinions were a bit different in general and we all kinda followed them based on their scores. Nobody complained that these two were being elitists, that would've been nonsense. Their scores and feedback were very helpful in agreeing on where these insane files should go. The same principle applies to any range.

Also, difficulty is relative to other files in a specific range. That being said, I'm pretty confident that it's more likely for a lower level player to get lost in the ratings if they dont set a minimal structure because, as it's been pointed out, the lower end is messy af. One could easily fall in the trap of X feels harder than Y so it seems like it should be bumped up, but the fact is that Y is an outlier of its range and should Also be changed.

All in all, if any DC explains to me their decisions without any attempted objectivity in their comparisions, especially if on the basis that "difficulty is subjective", then I'll just lol and chances are people will complain.

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Old 10-17-2019, 01:00 AM   #26
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

I promise I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just not in the mental state of reading the big posts at the moment but ultimately the fact is the way it's been approached hasn't been working out.

I want a diverse team, I've made this clear and I'm not the only one who thinks it should be so. Yes, they may not know every little detail but that's why us seasoned people are there, to help them learn and understand what they may not while being able to give us insight that we may no longer have being in the upper area.

This site has always had an elitist problem, for many many many years. You can say no it's not true but I see it regularly. It's a shame how some of the upper level people even talk to some of the lower end when they try to bring up some of this stuff.

Anyway, this is going to be a long project and not something that's gonna happen straight away so if for some reason it's not looking like it's working out we'll re-evaluate and go from there.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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I promise I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just not in the mental state of reading the big posts at the moment but ultimately the fact is the way it's been approached hasn't been working out.

I want a diverse team, I've made this clear and I'm not the only one who thinks it should be so. Yes, they may not know every little detail but that's why us seasoned people are there, to help them learn and understand what they may not while being able to give us insight that we may no longer have being in the upper area.

This site has always had an elitist problem, for many many many years. You can say no it's not true but I see it regularly. It's a shame how some of the upper level people even talk to some of the lower end when they try to bring up some of this stuff.

Anyway, this is going to be a long project and not something that's gonna happen straight away so if for some reason it's not looking like it's working out we'll re-evaluate and go from there.
I'm debating how difficulty should be assessed. I'm very ok with having a lower lvl player tackling this challenging task; it's not an insult that they may have a tougher time to do it than a more skilled player, it's just how it is. I will argue with any player, D7 or D1, if their explanations are bad. I already do it with Zenith and Haku. My goal isn't to provoke DC's, it's to have coherent difficulties.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:24 AM   #28
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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I'm debating how difficulty should be assessed. I'm very ok with having a lower lvl player tackling this challenging task; it's not an insult that they may have a tougher time to do it than a more skilled player, it's just how it is. I will argue with any player, D7 or D1, if their explanations are bad. I already do it with Zenith and Haku. My goal isn't to provoke DC's, it's to have coherent difficulties.
It's impossible to have coherent difficulties right now because the system is too flawed. Too many people are basing it on what "they" find hard or easy. Or looking at a small set of players. You guys can debate if you want to, we already have a plan in mind.

I honestly wish you all would just hold up and wait till we get this settled more formally and present our idea rather than it keep being this huge thing.
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

If a file is too easy to judge for a higher-skilled player, isn't it a possibility to just up the rate? From my personal entirely subjective experience what makes a file hard for a beginner that's playing index usually isn't that different from what makes a file hard for a more advanced player. It's usually just the speed and frequency at which the patterns come up.

Even if you have a level 3 file where arrows come in lets say every 0.5 seconds a [1,2,2,1] pattern is still going to be harder to hit for most players than a [1,2,3,4] pattern.

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Old 10-17-2019, 09:16 AM   #30
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

Being a pretty low D6 player whose ass at aaaing shit and pretty bad at dense patterns i definitely feel like we need lower level difficulty people. Having mostly higher end doesnt really make much sense since you dont really have trouble with most patterns. Over the past 2 days ive played a bunch of newer songs and i feel like a bunch of them are a bit off still. I'm level 87 and still have trouble with songs in the 60s and 70s range. We might not necessarily need a D2 OR D3 player but i think having maybe a D4,5, and/or D6 would be good since they can see harder patterning better than someone who plays 100s and aaas them with ease.

You really do need to think like a newer player. Starting out jacks and rolls/bursts are pretty hard. I feel like compared to older lower level files the newer ones are getting much more difficult in terms of actual patterning and layering. Like, hands were pretty rare back in the day and now ALOT of lower level songs have them. For a new player thats just learning they wont be able to comprehend them all that fast so something with hands might be harder in terms of difficulty but a high level player wont see that.
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

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If a file is too easy to judge for a higher-skilled player, isn't it a possibility to just up the rate?
I've seen from the TCG missions that this is does not work consistently. I play test the songs that have been added thus far to that list and difficulty scales vastly differently on rates. Some patterns can scale difficulty almost twice as fast as less technical patterning. It doesn't say much about the base difficulty of the file once you speed it up.

For example:
Queue up "Atlast" (11) on a rate equal to your division, then queue up "Morning Glory" (11).
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Old 10-17-2019, 11:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: Difficulty Consultant Applications

Y'know, when it comes to easier difficulties, I think the first thing to take note of is the NPS and place the difficulty number based on that for the super low numbers since at that point the patterns shouldn't even be considered unless there's suddenly a burst of 16ths in the middle of a file. If there is, I'd rate the song solely on that one section.

It's only when NPS on average get higher at 4 or so where you'd have to consider if note patterning is flow friendly. That's when you start basing difficulties strictly on note structure and patterning. If there's a sudden extra note in the middle of a bunch of 8ths, I'd raise the difficulty up based on that alone. If there's more than one instance where it happens, bump it up again. Repeat until that one instance happens throughout the file and then rate the difficulty based on pattern choices.

Rinse and repeat as things get faster and faster.

...

It's how I would approach it anyways, lol.
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