What keeps you using 3.95?

[Kyzentun]

Originally Posted by Frank Munoz

you nitpicked an entire post made from halogen and targeted minacious, about an aspect ratio complaint.
ignoring the entirety of what the whole post was about.

I picked out the stuff that could be identified as an actual issue. And ignored the part where apparently Halogen thinks every problem he had with SM4 6-7 years ago applies to SM5.

Then Minacious comes along and says that SM5 has absolutely no improvements. When someone says that, it's clear they aren't going to consider anything that is done to be a reason, because they're not looking. So what is there to actually do for someone like Minacious? I try to pick one thing that might be fixable, and he responds with personal insults. This isn't a guy trying to solve problems, or someone who even wants problems to be solved. He is however, a prime representative of the FFR community.

I could list improvements made to SM5. The list would be longer than this thread just to cover the last 2-3 years. 90% of the features you guys cheer about in ca25nada's theme thread wouldn't even be possible without the work I personally put into improving the engine. Most of them were made because I wanted some improvement in my own theme and the engine got in my way.


Halogen: Your insight didn't list much of "this is an actual problem". It was "people use 3.95 because they use 3.95". Not even a single customization listed in detail, then you invented a problem that doesn't even exist as a reason not to use SM5's edit mode.


Basic modifications: In 5.1, there's an entire submenu dedicated to adjusting the notefield. Hidden/sudden, offsets for both, receptor offset, field zoom (on all three axes), field rotation (on all three, though only x rotation is useful), disabling the white flash on hidden/sudden (it's not hardcoded anymore), and other more obscure stuff.

Online mode: I don't play it, personal insults aren't going to make me want to work on it. If this was a paying job, I'd ask my boss to throw you out of the building.

Windows optimizations: One guy reported a crash that went away when he manually specified a sound driver that besides WaveOut. Now he's gone and I have no way to investigate why WaveOut crashes for him. This is typical of problems that occur only for windows. I can't reproduce them for myself, the person experiencing them can't test, explain, or investigate enough to make it possible to fix the problem. So it doesn't get fixed.

This probably bears repeating: I don't work on things I can't test. If I can't test something and make sure it works, or find someone reliable to test it for me, I don't make it or touch it. If that means you're left out in the cold, tough luck. Find a windows dev to solve the problem, or step up and do it yourself (like I did for every feature I wanted).

Timing: Some day, when I have nothing useful whatsoever to do, I'll investigate why this judgment graph has weird spikes instead of a smooth curve. If Minacious and Halogen are typical examples of the competitive scene, it's not worth investigating something that might indicate presses being misjudged by a few random milliseconds. The insults do you no favors.

SM6: I make no promises about something I haven't even started work on yet.


There, I wasted some time addressing more issues in detail.

[GammaBlaster]

Originally Posted by xVaLoRx

please dont lock, i've quite enjoyed the read

yo valor how's it going

[TC_Halogen]

for fuck's sake, you really are saying that i'm insulting you after all the time i spent making a post trying to at least give you thoughts as to why people are potentially upset

a.) i didn't make up any problem that didn't exist - you're failing to realize that the whole purpose of you coming in here was to get 3.95 users to use SM5; i listed a reason that complements users being able to play better - if users can use the game the way they want and it has additional usable features from previous versions that existed, why are they going to move over (i.e. why is someone gonna go from 3.95 -> 5 when they can perform on it and have extended editor features, hence why i mentioned 192nds in the first place)

b.) contrary to what you might think, i'm actually not bitching about SM5 as much as you seem to give me credit for, otherwise i'd have spent an ample amount of time isolating things in detail - i'm actually using it because it runs rather well on my desktop and i have a theme that allowing me to play at relatively close to full potential (the theme you so callously mention as being incapable of running on a different platform - which for the record does not affect me so [b]why should i personally care[b/])

c.) the other points that i offered were just purely thought-provoking in that maybe you could hopefully stop being blind and realize that players have reasons behind everything they are bringing up, but clearly you don't care

d.)

I could list improvements made to SM5. The list would be longer than this thread just to cover the last 2-3 years. 90% of the features you guys cheer about in ca25nada's theme thread wouldn't even be possible without the work I personally put into improving the engine. Most of them were made because I wanted some improvement in my own theme and the engine got in my way.

thanks for that! but that doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful to us the way that you are now - you're a dev that's helped built the game engine, but you're not responsible for the elements that ca25nada, someone who actually comprehends the players of this community, helped to create - you wouldn't have known that the players wanted a bunch of these things on your own because you don't bother to keep in touch, so don't sit here and try to take credit for something that you only implicitly did; you're a dev for a game, you had features requested, and you did it as the responsibility of being a dev for the game (and note: you working for free doesn't nullify any of these points, because you have the right to choose and you could choose -not- to do it)

again, no one is complaining about the work that you do in the slightest; in fact, within the context of this thread, people are complaining about the attitude you are giving them when they are telling you how they feel

this is the last post i'm making in this shithole excuse of a thread, good luck with finding what you need.

[Frank Munoz]

Well, if you did pinpoint stuff that could be "identified as an actual issue", the comment concerning Minacious' theme modifying skills is irrelevant... albeit it's a bit understandable to wanna retaliate to some of the things being directed towards you, it's still unnecessary(as most of the things said in here).
especially considering that there's direct tension between you and minacious, and you blamed the whole sm3.9 userbase based on minacious' post.

Originally Posted by Kyzentun

To summarize:
I no longer give a shit about 3.9 players if there's that much blithering vitriol involved.

the thread was derailed because of this.

At one point the thread was no longer about what keeps people using sm3.9, and more about convincing you that our reasons have legitimacy.
Halogen said it well -

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

But honestly... seeking questions from the community was a good start by you guys, but the consistently vehement disagreements and ad hominem towards this particular community is really stupid, considering the fact that you guys came to us with questions. If you want to be irritated towards us making stupid requests out of our own volition (not that it's the most advised thing to do, but whatever), that's fine -- but when we're coming up with what we have as concerns within our particular community and you treat us like our opinions do not matter, you can't really expect to be received well.

The segment about us praising ca25nada's theme is something that doesn't need to be said here, as it has it's own separate thread
you also say that 90% of it wouldn't be possible without all the work you put into sm5.

It seems like you wanna be appreciated,
which you are because damn did you do some work
BUT, this thread seems to show a lesser side of that, as halogen said before
"...when we're coming up with what we have as concerns within our particular community and you treat us like our opinions do not matter, you can't really expect to be received well."
which is exactly what has/is happening; bad perception.

Halogen is making points about how to better communicate with this community, which should have really really been considered.
It's one of the things hindering you from obtaining useful information from us.
--------

Basic Modifications: There's alota customization in sm5 which is great cause many users can customize their play style even more. Just wish it was a bit more user friendly.

Online mode: Whether you play it or not... that demographic should be considered. Since FFR is almost exclusively an online game. And you asked this Online gaming community for suggestions.
Maybe it's time for a change ya know.
Considering the most active rhythm gaming community currently is probably OSU! and their online mode is apparently pretty solid, and actively used.
Hell, they held a world wide tourney LIVE. pretty rad.

You have said many times that you can't work on things you can't test.
It's understandable.

As for sm6, all we can really do is wait for what yall dish out and as much as you might think we overlook your efforts, I'm personally excited for it.

though... the problems in this thread now aren't really about sm anymore.

[PolygonEater]

I didn't want to participate in this thread since all the legitimate claims of problems are being thrown out as incoherent whining, but....

1. Rates above ~1.6 will crash when browsing the song selection menu, and when returning to it from gameplay, seemingly randomly.

Why is this? Oh...it might be the part where the code which deals with speeding up the music was torn apart causing it to sound AWFUL and crash. Hmmm...I wonder what happens when you put it back together? Lets see...it never crashes even on 3.0+ and no longer drifts off to the right side, and since someone put in the work of fixing the ringing it's actually better than using rates on 3.95.

Here's an example from my stream of a song which would normally sound really bad on rates on both 3.95 and SM5, but after putting the rate system back together is actually acceptable.

https://www.twitch.tv/xwidghet/v/67700637

2. Stepmania 5 stutters/lags. To specify, I'm talking about where stepmania doesn't have a new frame in time for the next vsync.

This could be the part where when running windows it always sleeps 1 millisecond, even if that means the next frame will be late. This mixed with whatever happened to the opengl render that made it monumentally slow, will make users think SM5 is garbage. Around three years ago or so I ported the DX8 renderer to DX9, and the result was that OpenGL and DX9 had the same frame rate during gameplay. Now when I run it, OpenGL is 1/2 to 2/3rds the speed of DX9. Anyone happen to know why? OpenGL is supposed to be the faster and better renderer.

3. The timing is different.

Why? Is it arguably more accurate? No SM5 dev who seems to know what's different will expand upon this, just confirm that it's different.

4. Move to saving files in App Data.

I understand that the move to app data was done to get around problems, but why don't you give the user an easy way to get to it? Unknowledgable users will just have no idea where their screenshots etc are going. Could be a hotkey, or even just a short cut.

I do have more, but I think I'll wait to see what kind of response I get before going on.

[xVaLoRx]

Originally Posted by GammaBlaster

yo valor how's it going

it's been good my main man, been chillin p hard since i got out of uni this month. loving the new autechre release, totally sublime. how've u been? (:

[GammaBlaster]

Originally Posted by xVaLoRx

it's been good my main man, been chillin p hard since i got out of uni this month. loving the new autechre release, totally sublime. how've u been? (:

first year in uni doing info tech, been makin' some sCK chipcore lately on the side :>

I love how we're derailing the thread casually looooooooooooooool

[Jousway]

halogen didnt insult kyz at all just saying, his posts are quite usefull, mina no the other hand is just a shitlord like always

[rtech]

I just keep using 3.95 because 5.x versions lag/stutter and often crashes for me

And the overall look on 3.95 is more appealing for me personally.

[Dj_Ossa]

Originally Posted by Jousway

wow thanks for proofing me right, another great example of being an ignorant player, there are a ton of pad players that play stepmania on pad, heck the piu stuff in south america is p big I would more say 50% is sm keyboard user base as in ffr because thats excluding a bunch of asian and south american communities because they mostly play pad or piu but what do I expect from a ignorant MURICAN huehue

I didn't "proof" you right, bud. I used to operate a very significant StepMania community (third biggest in the world at its peak), mirror hosting for packs, simfile database and even a stepmaniaonline server. I might not be a pad player myself, but I have dealt with many of the pad communities in different parts of the world as the website expanded and DO understand that they are a significant portion of the community. Also, I pulled that percentage out of my ass to make a point, just like you just pulled that 50% out of yours. Also, I'm South American and most-definitely not ignorant. PS you throw that word around quite a bit, as if you didn't know its negative connotation; you should stop.

Originally Posted by Jousway

lawl calling windows "PC" o ok, anyways kyz is a linux developer its his own choice to not use windows there is nothing forcing him to use/develop for windows most people that work on stepmania make stuff for them selfs and besides why would he care about shitty little ignorant children like you that go HERPDERP 3.95 IS BEST EVER FAPFAPFAPFAP, its just not worth anyones time

PC is a Windows computer for me and for most of the world, way to kill it with the logical fallacies, keep it up!

Also, Sir, he develops for a game and, as he said, if it was a paying job and he refused to work on something that doesn't appeal to him, HE would get thrown out of a balcony, not the costumer. Also, "shitty little ignorant children" and HERPDERP, among other slang you have used in this thread are definitely NOT good examples (or exhibitions) of how to communicate with your TARGET AUDIENCE when you're representing a product and looking for feedback. Shame on you, adult baby you.

Originally Posted by Jousway

read top part, also HERP DERP GUYS CHECK MY SCORE HOW BIG IS MY E-PENIS NOW? HUEHUE, remember when stepmania was about fun and not fucking scores, I do rip.

Adult baby, tantrum is over, let's move on. This is a ridiculous statement as StepMania, much like the fucking game it's based on (DDR, remember?) is primarily a SCORING game. Let's say you wanna have a good 'ol fun and go to the arcade and play some DEEDZ cuz it's fun.... right? WRONG, if you don't score you lose... And your fucking quarters are gone, son! I don't give two shits if my arrows can spin and disappear and do magic fucking tricks if I can't hit them on time, consistently. I don't play the game for high scores, I'm not very good anymore. I play it for fun. I am NOT having fun with your current product. Ok, bring the tantrum back, I guess.

Originally Posted by Jousway

its just a slight timing you need to get used to and a ton of people have, its like switching from beatmania to lr2 its diffrent but calling the game shit (which some people do not saying u do) because its HERPDERP NOT THE SAME is stupid and I find it ignorant if people say 3.95 is "better" because its obvious not, its a random broken pull from the source code just to make online work, how is a broken version like that better, do people like insulting the devs that much?

Good to see you calmed downnnn-ish! The only issue I have with this statement is that Beatmania and lr2 are TWO DIFFERENT GAMES. I should NOT have to switch my timing every time I upgrade my StepMania, that's like having to re-adjust your sensitivity, sway, and timing every time I buy a new Call of Duty. Just... No.

Also, funny as it may be, I have yet to be able to make Online work on SM5.1, so I'll stick with my "random broken pull" until I am able to play a god-dammed match with bboy without the game crashing 5 times. How do you justify that the "broken pull" that is 3.95 works better than your shinny product, do devs like insulting the consumers that much?

Originally Posted by Jousway

meanwhile osu has spyware that takes screenshots of your pc LOLOLOLOLOLOL
anyways sm6 is going to be a complete overhaul in a different engine, so expect better online functionality, it wont be sm5 or 3.95 so the timing will be different again but hey who cares, we all know how you guys are going to react already

That's completely not the point, good sir. I don't give a fuck if osu! takes screenshots of my PC (that runs Windows OHHHHH YEAAAAAAHHHHH), I would let all of you take a peak at my desktop and probably suck your dick if StepMania could ever do what osu! does.

I'm glad SM6 is aiming to be this ambitious but, if you boys keep this attitude, I will have no choice but to just make sure I let my kids know when it comes out in 15 years.

Originally Posted by Jousway

one person from the SSC even gave up on sm becasue of how toxic this and a few other communities are, just sayin

He was probably an emo bitch. Not the only one that's giving up on SM though!

I do appreciate the FREE work you all do, but definitely not your attitude and, if his was nearly as annoying and childish as yours, I can see why he quit StepMania. I would personally quit life but, choices.

Originally Posted by Jousway

like I said, its like comparing beatmania to lr2 the timing is different and you just have to get use to it, but sticking to an inferior broken version just blows my mind, even 3.9+ makes more sense

Again, same game, shouldn't have to.



Ok, I'm done. Bye!

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

He was probably an emo bitch. Not the only one that's giving up on SM though!

I do appreciate the FREE work you all do, but definitely not your attitude and, if his was nearly as annoying and childish as yours, I can see why he quit StepMania. I would personally quit life but, choices.

http://sm.ajworld.net/themes/

[Walrusizer]

you do realize that people who actually play the game semi seriously dont want to spend 3 months adjusting to sm5 when it provides little benefit for them as 4k players over 3.95

[xanox100]

Why is this even a topic? I'm pretty sure we're all adults here.

[icontrolyourworld]

wow jousway so salty

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

I didn't "proof" you right, bud. I used to operate a very significant StepMania community (third biggest in the world at its peak), mirror hosting for packs, simfile database and even a stepmaniaonline server. I might not be a pad player myself, but I have dealt with many of the pad communities in different parts of the world as the website expanded and DO understand that they are a significant portion of the community. Also, I pulled that percentage out of my ass to make a point, just like you just pulled that 50% out of yours. Also, I'm South American and most-definitely not ignorant. PS you throw that word around quite a bit, as if you didn't know its negative connotation; you should stop.

yeah I did pull that 50% out of my ass but my point still stands that the keyboard comunity isnt the only one, also sorry for calling you an ignorant murican its just the way you acted was exacty like one to me

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

PC is a Windows computer for me and for most of the world, way to kill it with the logical fallacies, keep it up!

I always found it silly when people say PC when they mean windows because pc is a broader term than just windows but I guess its just me oops

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Also, Sir, he develops for a game and, as he said, if it was a paying job and he refused to work on something that doesn't appeal to him, HE would get thrown out of a balcony, not the costumer. Also, "shitty little ignorant children" and HERPDERP, among other slang you have used in this thread are definitely NOT good examples (or exhibitions) of how to communicate with your TARGET AUDIENCE when you're representing a product and looking for feedback. Shame on you, adult baby you.

but it isnt a working job, if it was my opinnion would be the same as yours but its something he works on in his free time with his free will and he just doesnt want to work with windows, give him the freedom he wants :V

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Adult baby, tantrum is over, let's move on. This is a ridiculous statement as StepMania, much like the fucking game it's based on (DDR, remember?) is primarily a SCORING game. Let's say you wanna have a good 'ol fun and go to the arcade and play some DEEDZ cuz it's fun.... right? WRONG, if you don't score you lose... And your fucking quarters are gone, son! I don't give two shits if my arrows can spin and disappear and do magic fucking tricks if I can't hit them on time, consistently. I don't play the game for high scores, I'm not very good anymore. I play it for fun. I am NOT having fun with your current product. Ok, bring the tantrum back, I guess.

I myself dont really care about score and focus on enjoying the music more but I guess I'm the only one, its also one of the reasons my barebone theme didnt have a eval screen when it came out, but I listenend to people and added it :>

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Good to see you calmed downnnn-ish! The only issue I have with this statement is that Beatmania and lr2 are TWO DIFFERENT GAMES. I should NOT have to switch my timing every time I upgrade my StepMania, that's like having to re-adjust your sensitivity, sway, and timing every time I buy a new Call of Duty. Just... No.

after 4.0 and the overal from xml to lua the changes were quite big which resulted in a ton of changes including the timing and resulted in bugs, its closer to being what lr2 is to beatmania than cod mw3 is to cod mw2

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Also, funny as it may be, I have yet to be able to make Online work on SM5.1, so I'll stick with my "random broken pull" until I am able to play a god-dammed match with bboy without the game crashing 5 times. How do you justify that the "broken pull" that is 3.95 works better than your shinny product, do devs like insulting the consumers that much?

could you tell us the problem you're having so we can look into it if you're willing that is, it could be that its kyz's change to screenselectstyle being lua based now which results in crashes, I had to fix that manually in my barebone theme :V

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

That's completely not the point, good sir. I don't give a fuck if osu! takes screenshots of my PC (that runs Windows OHHHHH YEAAAAAAHHHHH), I would let all of you take a peak at my desktop and probably suck your dick if StepMania could ever do what osu! does.

I find my privacy quite important and having a program take screenshots and upload them is quite a privacy breach to me

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

I'm glad SM6 is aiming to be this ambitious but, if you boys keep this attitude, I will have no choice but to just make sure I let my kids know when it comes out in 15 years.

I hope its sooner than 15 years haha

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

He was probably an emo bitch. Not the only one that's giving up on SM though!

I do appreciate the FREE work you all do, but definitely not your attitude and, if his was nearly as annoying and childish as yours, I can see why he quit StepMania. I would personally quit life but, choices.

see last post what happens when ya said this, the person you insulted took it quite bad, I might have gone over the top myself but there was on reason to insult him so much :<

Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld

wow jousway so salty

I was so salty man

[Dj_Ossa]

Thank you for that reply, Jousway! See that's the kind of discussion we've been looking for since this thread started.

Now let's keep the ball rolling! I'll look into the online issue and send you the info.

As for this...

Originally Posted by Jousway

see last post what happens when ya said this, the person you insulted took it quite bad, I might have gone over the top myself but there was on reason to insult him so much :<

I meant it more as a joke but I apologize if he got offended. I am aware of the HUGE impact AJ has had in stepmania and, had I known it was him, I would have never said this. If you talk to him, send him my apologies, please.

[MarioNintendo]

Hello, are you enjoying this legendary thread? This is when Stepmania 5's development stopped. It all started here. Amazing, right?

[Dj_Ossa]

I still think something good can come out of this thread.

[xVaLoRx]

Originally Posted by xanox100

Why is this even a topic? I'm pretty sure we're all adults here.

fantastic post

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Thank you for that reply, Jousway! See that's the kind of discussion we've been looking for since this thread started.

yeah I tought if I went to shit post again we would get nowere haha

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

Now let's keep the ball rolling! I'll look into the online issue and send you the info.

cool, anyways try my barebone theme and see if it still happens if it doesnt I'm sure its the bug in the engine when you set the game type using lua

Originally Posted by Dj_Ossa

As for this...




I meant it more as a joke but I apologize if he got offended. I am aware of the HUGE impact AJ has had in stepmania and, had I known it was him, I would have never said this. If you talk to him, send him my apologies, please.

<~freem> please tell ossa I appreciate the gesture