Old 06-30-2014, 10:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I like the idea but I don't feel like there's much of a consistent foundation for these tiers outside of maybe Tier 2 and 3. Much of it relies on perception of ability without any objective assessment of ability. As such, as you've pointed out to an extent, this is more for fun than actually categorizing anything properly.

Tier 1 applies too subjectively because many people respond this way not because of capacity to respond, but because they don't give a shit about the topic matter and or are not well versed enough in it to comment either way. Obviously you'd have to differentiate between these for this tier to matter at all.

Tier 4 and 5 are just too nebulous and perception dependent for my tastes IMO. In tier 5 you emphasize traits such as 'down to earth' and 'very mature' and 'optimistic'.

These aren't really objective traits; they're entirely subjective and down to interpretation. Many people will consider someone 'down to earth' and someone else won't. Definitions of maturity vary so wildly I doubt you could find any consistency here.

If anything I feel like this is only pandering to people smart enough that they seem really smart to the average person without being so smart as to alienate them. Many of the most extremely intelligent people are not well received by their peers in terms of idea sharing etc because people have nothing in common with them and therefore have no objective way of assessing their ability.

This is a bit of an aside but most people you would probably consider really smart and extremely wise are only about 1 standard deviation above where you fall intellectually. People are not accurate whatsoever in differentiating and assessing the ability of people significantly smarter than they are.



Anyway, criticism aside I enjoyed the read and your ideas.


Quote:
And intelligent quotients don't mean much either. They can sort of separate people into categories below 120-ish, but anything higher and using that measurement as an evaluation of intelligence is ridiculous.
I'd agree for the most part if you move this number up to 140ish.

IQ is well correlated with life outcomes and academic performance right up until you get close to the ceiling of the test (which is 145 for most basic tests and 160 for most of the bigger batteries like the WAIS).

And to be fair, even tests that have used extremely dubious normalizations to measure IQ well beyond 160, even they've shown half decent correlations between IQ and outcomes in the stratospheric range. (I think it was Silverman that did a longitudinal study that looked exclusively at 160+s if I recall correctly).


Now, whether you want to call what the test is measuring intelligence or not is another debate entirely, but whatever it is measuring is fairly useful and can be measured fairly accurately.
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:41 AM   #22
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I'm pretty much with Reach on this. Tiers 4-5 are measuring effectively personality, not ability. Further, real-life philosophical gurus have been far from relating to the average person; Nietzsche would hardly fit into tier five. There are other obvious but unanswered questions, e.g. how are you measuring any of these traits like maturity, since ways of measuring these things differ and even people who measure these things professionally aren't always in agreement.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
Is it possible to be a mixture of tiers?
Absolutely. You can have mental "hotspots" for certain subjects which you immediately have insight on and a backbone of evidence for based on realistic intuition.

I don't think there's a tier of wisdom really. Either people are insightfully sound, insightfully unsound, or on the approach of one of the two. But it is also contextual. Spending time delving into a variety of subjects and just exploring things in the manner of which your mind allows will expand the subjects which your intuition can dissect.
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Old 06-30-2014, 05:08 PM   #24
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Finally I'm getting some fun replies to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reach View Post
Tier 1 applies too subjectively because many people respond this way not because of capacity to respond, but because they don't give a shit about the topic matter and or are not well versed enough in it to comment either way. Obviously you'd have to differentiate between these for this tier to matter at all.
That's simple actually. Apply the "Why?" test. "Why don't you have an opinion?"/"Why do you not care about this topic?"
If they have a rationalized answer, they're not tier 1. But you are right in that if they don't give more rational discourse you probably couldn't further analyze their level of understanding.

I edited the tier 1 example to try and get across the fact that it is not because of an approach towards a particular issue that classifies people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch0wl View Post
Further, real-life philosophical gurus have been far from relating to the average person; Nietzsche would hardly fit into tier five. There are other obvious but unanswered questions, e.g. how are you measuring any of these traits like maturity, since ways of measuring these things differ and even people who measure these things professionally aren't always in agreement.
Well, I did mention that philosophers and physicists especially are prone to falling into tier 3. When I described the tier as "Philosophical Guru" I'm not referring to the academic field of philosophy, but rather a general kind of real-life wisdom.

And you're right, it would be difficult to measure things like maturity, but I'm not necessarily saying that these traits are requirements to meet a particular tier. Some traits are the result of being able to understand certain things. For example, understanding certain kinds of social interactions very well could imply that someone will seem mature, because if they were being immature that would demonstrate that they are not applying what they understand.



I would say the separation between tier 3 and tier 4+ mainly comes from being able to put things into larger contexts in addition to breaking down details. One example of this would be realizing that two topics that seem unrelated actually have a very direct correlation, and that in turn implies many other things being related as well.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I try my best to learn as much as possible about the things that interest me.... just for the sake of curiosity and self-enlightenment

I feel like I have an open mind and while there are a lot of topics that don't interest me, I try not to generalize and draw conclusions to ideas outside my scope of knowledge. If someone talks about something I don't have definite knowledge about I just sit back, listen and learn.

Pseudo intellectuals are pretty much the worst people ever. I'd rather hang out with an idiot that at least knows and admits hes one than someone who always has their two cents to put in even if they know nothing of the topic.

arrogant pseudo intellectuals just make me cringe hngggggggg

on a funny note: I was playing Bioshock Infinite the other day and in one part of the game there is a blackboard with 'fancy scientific mathy' stuff to make it look complicated.

what was hilarious though was one of the 'functions' I saw on the board was (sinx)^2 = 2sinxcosx [i dont know how to write exponents in this forum lmao]. I was like lmfao that isn't even correct its supposed to be sin2x, which would be the double angle formula for the sin function. I was like they obviously did it on purpose to see if anyone would notice. It's funny that the equation is wrong. It's even funnier that the formula is hardly complex, and is taught in most precalculus classes in high schools.......
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Old 07-2-2014, 12:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Quote:
but rather a general kind of real-life wisdom.

And you're right, it would be difficult to measure things like maturity, but I'm not necessarily saying that these traits are requirements to meet a particular tier. Some traits are the result of being able to understand certain things. For example, understanding certain kinds of social interactions very well could imply that someone will seem mature, because if they were being immature that would demonstrate that they are not applying what they understand.
I know this is a response to Arch0wl, but I have a few points to make.

I come from a background in psychometrics (BS.c in Psych, I basically specialized in that though), so I actually really like stuff like the list you've made here.

But using terms like 'a general kind of real-life wisdom' or 'certain kinds of social interactions' just doesn't cut it in that domain because it has no scientific (or more specifically psychometric) value. It's too vague. You've left it open ended to the point that it basically comes down to what someone thinks.

Now I know the point of this list isn't to be used per say as a psychometric assessment tool, so you never really intended to be specific to the point of this being able to be used as a diagnostic tool. But I'm thinking that's the line that Arch is coming from; the list isn't specific or rigorous enough to actually be used in a reliable and accurate way. You'd have to majorly refine pretty much all of your terms and come up with concrete criteria that are reliable.


I feel like what you're leaning towards here is very akin to what most people would describe as emotional intelligence, except you've gone in one direction with it. However, if you're familiar at all with the concept of emotional intelligence you'll know that it has been a train wreck in the psych community because all of the metrics that people have developed have been pretty much garbage in terms of their accuracy.

As it turns out, it's really hard to measure stuff like this accurately. Measuring personality and 'intelligence' has been 100x more successful. Some people hypothesize that this is because when attempting to measure EI and EI related ideas, personality factors and intelligence end up confounding your measurements (some people think it's just a combination of personality and intelligence and not actually a thing at all).

To name a few problems you can run into when you're not extremely specific with your criteria: Not actually measuring what you intend to measure (e.g. as above, measuring personality instead), measuring something else we already have metrics for, and extremely weak reliability /predictive power.
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Old 07-2-2014, 06:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I'm a seventh degree wisdomlord
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Old 07-2-2014, 08:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I think I'm blissfully ignorant. I have the view where you don't need education to be smart and I stress that a lot and I get a lot of my research about certain things from my friends points of views about certain topics (but will read into the odd thing every now and then). I also have the strong opinion quality from the 2nd level of wisdom which is Natural Idiosyncrasy.
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Old 07-3-2014, 06:56 PM   #29
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I don't think these tiers are very leveled, I think you think more people fit into tier 1 than actually do, and I think you're amalgamating things that aren't really related.
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Old 07-3-2014, 11:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I'm also amused that as you presumably want to move -up- these levels through reflection and education, you first have to become academically gifted, and then become no longer academically gifted.
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Old 07-5-2014, 12:30 PM   #31
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I think Reach basically summed up everything I didn't quite like in my own thread and more.

And I still think people are misinterpreting what I describe as tier 1. I don't think anyone smart enough to walk into this thread is intellectually challenged enough to qualify as tier 1.

While it is possible that I am combining concepts that aren't related, it's more about looking for generalizations and descriptions of a large subset of the tier, if not a majority. Which means, for example, I don't necessarily think people need to get "dumber" to go from tier 3 to tier 4.

I would elaborate and talk more but I'm on vacation and typing from a phone is annoying. lol
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Old 07-5-2014, 02:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I'm surprised.
Even after all the crap I heard about this thread from a distance, I actually agree with most of it.
It would be far more accurate and sensitive if then or more people worked on the initial Tier template, but can't really complain since it's on FFR.

Here is a quick example of how I would rephrase the table.

Tier 1: Blissful Ignorance
...Lack of noticeable mental capacity which can be used to examine social situations or process meaningful arguments.
...Any given opinions are usually based entirely off of extreme emotion, and are thus usually very uninformed and unhelpful.

...An example of a twisted representation of this tier would be, a thousand years ago, an extremely educated intellectual attempting a conversation with a family farmer.
......That farmer will know everything there is to know about farming for all seasons and weather conditions.
......He may not have the education and social graces to communicate it, but he is certainly not living in blissful ignorance!
......It could be argued, for the farmers case, that the intellectual is living in blissful ignorance of what is actually required to produce food for him to eat.


It is worth noting, that this would not apply evenly across time.
...Everyone who existed 5000 years ago was not living in blissful ignorance, instead the scope and scale of this would need to be adjusted.
...If you assume that IQ level determines your position on this tier, then you sadly belong in Tier 1.

Traits:
  • Generally do not have strong opinions unless spurred emotionally.
  • Poor or nonexistent rational discourse. When one is provided it may not make sense in context.
  • Usually blissfully content with their situation, and are unconcerned with anyone or anything.


Tier 5+: Philosophical Guru
...These are people who just understand anything you throw at them, in a non-academic sense.
...They have enough life experience to account for any education they may have received.
...Regardless of their intellectual standing, they will understand any issue you bring them at a level which is detached from the one you are presenting.

Traits:
  • Mature, and have an apparent lack in the ability to argue.
  • Powerful understanding of nearly everything to do with non-academic issues, without the need for an education surrounding it.
  • Optimistic to a fault.
-------------------------

Anyway, that's my cents.
I definitely don't put any weight on using a list like this. Everyone is different, and like the farmer, have different levels of 'enlightenment' in different areas.
We can safely assume that all of us are blissfully ignorant about many things.
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Old 07-5-2014, 02:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

I just think that a lot of people can be very smart about some things, and can be very open-minded about some things, but not others. I don't think individuals fit into these tiers.
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Old 07-5-2014, 06:55 PM   #34
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Someone who is "wise," IMO, is someone who I'd characterize as being very insightful with good advice, decision-making skills, and judgment.

In other words, I think to be "wise" you need a few things:

1. Intelligence (you have to be able to logically pick apart problems and consider all the nuances that come with the context/situation)

2. Experience (when you're making judgment calls, this usually requires a lot of data to calibrate your conclusions)

3. Knowledge (being familiar with a wide array of subjects means you'll be better informed in terms of drawing conclusions)

4. Self-awareness (I think this is important for the sake of remaining impartial when the situation calls for it, as well as being able to change your mind when better solutions exist / checking your ego at the door)

A lot of these areas have some overlap but w/e.

I think it also depends on whether or not we're talking about "subject-level wisdom" or "general wisdom" (using similar concepts from Spearman's g-factor in terms of variance). For example, some people are considered very "wise" investors, but maybe they aren't similarly "wise" when it comes to, say, dating, etc.

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Old 07-5-2014, 11:33 PM   #35
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Strength is the ability to crush a tomato

Dexterity is the ability to dodge a thrown tomato

Constitution is the ability to eat a rotten tomato

Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit

Wisdom is knowing not to put tomato in a fruit salad

Charisma is being able to sell a tomato based fruit salad
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Old 07-5-2014, 11:41 PM   #36
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

That.
Is the best thing I've read all year*.
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Old 07-6-2014, 05:49 PM   #37
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Omg devonin XD
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Old 07-13-2014, 06:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

that is a mouthful
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Old 10-25-2014, 11:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mymission247 View Post
that is a mouthful
That's what she said.


Guess my Tier?
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Old 10-26-2014, 12:41 AM   #40
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Default Re: Levels of "Wisdom"

Surprisingly this thread hasn't annoyed the crap out of me yet.

I'm also surprised that no one's mentioned Socrates yet? It seems to be the whole basis of you scale, considering you refer to the "Why" test. If you don't remember the story I suggest you look it over again, but basically Socrates, being humble about his wisdom and acknowledging that he knew very little, was beset a task by god to discover whether there was anyone more wise than he. Then he went around and broke people's brains by asking "Why" a bunch, and found that people were idiots. Also he was sentenced to death by poison because of this.

stargroup100, now you must die.
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