[XelNya]

I'm just gonna retread the thread since I was last here.

Originally Posted by Lights

On what grounds should dumps be segregated from the existing content on FFR?

You're just drawing an arbitrary line in the sand based on your own preferences and imposing it onto others- if you don't like dumps, dont play them. nobody is forcing you to play content you don't personally enjoy.

We actually have a precident for the segregation of content, such as the Legacy files, and even Tokens not being in public ranks. Both of which are things I support, and they hold true here. I'd also seperate them out.

From later on:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

...this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Accuratly hits my own feelings on this. Not maybe the osumania part, because not only do I have a bit more faith in... most of the current judges - but the folks at the helm are trying to give direction and actually do what I've wanted for a while - make FFR an actual game rather than just an engine.

But in other words, I hope this:

Originally Posted by Psychotik

You keep assuming like these charts won't be judged to the same quality standards as regular charts. If anything, these will likely be more closely scrutinized for quality and consistency as they will be the first official ones.

Rings more true than false.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

Everybody in this thread arguing whether dumps are "good" - that's not the question.
Obviously dumps are good to have in the community: they're fun, they open up song and pattern choice, they're easy to make so you can make more levels and more people can participate in stepping, there's obviously plenty of good sides to it.

I've never once said having dumps available in a separate playlist or alternate engine was ever bad, in fact I think it's great.

The question is should they should have a place on the main FFR song list?
Among other identifying features, (such as having a shit broken engine) this site has historically identified itself by having well-synced, high quality files available for everyone to compare themselves with. Dumps like vROFL were always very clearly separated from the actually good charts. That's been the site's niche. Now it won't be.

I'm noticing a majority of people don't care, so whatever. I'm not going to piss into the wind too much. Fuck the site's original vision, we're evolving here! Backwards.
I guess the site's new identity is... worse osu!mania? Certainly some big names like AJ thought that and acted accordingly. Or have we been there for a while and I just didn't bother to notice lmao

Can't say I at all times would have agreed with everything here, we certainly know I've had some fucking brain-rot level takes about file making, But I pretty much agree with this whole thing.

Klim as a complete side note, I actually encourage you to go play, or at least, look through some of the more dump-oriented files from Etterna. I pretty much sat where you do right now, but after ditching FFR for a long time and chatting with some folks who showed me stuff and explained it so even my brain-rot gets it, you could totally see something more cool, and even see the more "art" styled content that can be made with dumping.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I do not have faith in the judge team to maintain file quality standards.

Originally Posted by Tru

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'd of course want to know why. FFR staff in general is pretty flexible/open to ideas. Can dm me to not derail the thread if you want.

Listen, I agree with Hi19 that sometimes I get super pessimistic about the judgeteam (I currently think at least one of them is a fucking idiot) and given that I don't think any judge currently primarily has dumps as their strong suit, I kind of get his point. Would be nice if we could pick up a judge that is. I guess is my contribution to the chat here.

Originally Posted by Wiosna

... I think this is just rude tbh. osu!mania's charting community is imo pretty dire for multiple reasons and I don't think FFR is anywhere near that point. I won't say that osu!mania is necessarily filled with derivative work, but I think the osu!mania scene is trying to find its own identity and the game being a safe haven for dumps is misguided. I also think that FFR, even when you look strictly at the dumps that people in this community have made, are much closer to tech files with ghost note elements, so think closer to Rainshower than... the archetypal dump file that you can think of, really.

I see the dump batch as more of an attempt at inclusivity. Speaking from personal experience as someone who is relatively "new" to the FFR stepping scene (I mostly stepped for osu!mania and Etterna before this), I definitely felt as if a good portion of my style wasn't going to be accepted because of how much I use ghost notes as a form of layering -- whether it would be a Sharpnel-esque JS dump or bursts to bass wobbles (which have pronounced peaks, but there's still only one attack per wobble). I've butted heads with judges a few times over this, and it's piled on by the fact that judges are inconsistent in judging these files. It's immensely frustrating.

I would get an 8.5/10 from one judge, but I could get a 5-5.5/10 from a different judge for a very similar file -- with the latter judge basically saying that they generally don't agree with the approach at hand. You can argue that this is a judge issue more than anything, but the fact that my files have to go through more hoops than the average file is, admittedly, emotionally draining for me, and I would've liked a much less ambiguous judgment (either yes or no, though "yes" would be better) rather than thinking about whether it would be worth it to submit a file like that that I'm happy with and feel that players would enjoy. Being told unambiguously that Rainshower was more or less greenlighted by multiple judges was relieving to me, and I wouldn't want ambiguity to be an issue that more contemporary stepartists will face for picking up a relatively new trend in stepping.

And this isn't really talking about players' views on the matter: Many players do enjoy the output that I've made a lot across every community that I've posted those files in (Ideal Ratio, Rainshower, Writing on the Walls, even some of the Sharpnel files). And they don't really consider these files to be "dumps" proper these days because the files are so commonplace outside of FFR. And with the bulk of FFR players coming from other rhythm game communities these days, I think it makes more sense to have its judging philosophy (and in turn, the output that represent the game) partially align with most communities at hand. osu!mania and Etterna still have different judging criteria for dumps across stepartists and judges (no judges on EO obviously but they "exist" in o!m).



I (think I) know what you're trying to say here with dump files not being on sync by definition -- but I think it's presumptuous to say that just because a dump file isn't synced in the conventional sense (notes placed to attacks and only attacks) doesn't mean that it should be a file in-game. Most dumps have notes to peaks rather than strictly attacks, which again, does have a notably different feeling of gameplay (a misuse of this can lead to a file being very loose and tenuous to play through) and is a bit dicier to judge than more literal files, but I find it hard-pressed to think about whether that's necessarily a thing that should exclude a style from the game -- even ones that were executed very well. It seems like a trade-off thing that judges have to consider, which I think is manageable, though I think that there will be pitfalls in judging here and there all the same that judges will face. In that sense, I definitely see the lack of faith in maintaining judge standards, because it does require additional criteria for assessment.

I would love to talk to you about dumps and certain reservations with it further (I'm Alice in the Discord server, the idiot with the salmon-coloured hair anime girl avatar) because, admittedly, I think the gap in philosophy to be intriguing and I ultimately want to see what exactly the rift is for certain stepartists. It's something that I've done before for other communities as well (I was one of the main proponents to get people to accept dumps for the ranked section in osu!mania, though I don't really like the direction that it's going on a personal level because of a poor assessment criteria), so maybe there's a productive discussion to be had at some point.

(By paragraph
1. FFR might not be there yet, but misacceptance of bad work (which he's actively shown is pretty much his biggest concern here) would be the fast-track way to accelerate there. Hi19's right and that we could end there very quickly.
2. See earlier comment of a judge having a dump oriented style being missing is probably one of the biggest problems here. But to be fair - this is how FFR's judging has always been. You kinda get lucky with a judge who gets you sometimes, and sometimes you get ass blasted by stupid choices.
3. Just wait till you have a song rejected three times for the song choice. Sure wish we'd done more of that in recent times. /sarcasm because folks here would miss it otherwise
4. Don't really have much to add here, so, fuck osu.
5. To really sumerize my thoughts here again, as long as the "dumnp" has a structure, and some basic rules that a player can pickup on, such as "this buzz is a 32nd, this one that is slower is a 24th, regardless how it would actively line up, it would be hard for me personally, to reject it.
6. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, it'd be really to get some like, interviews with some of the simauthors here on this site, fuck I might actually have to do it now.

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

I personally wouldn't want them ranked, but I know a lot of people do. I don't really care in this regard.
I would suggest two different ranking systems but that seems pretty pointless when from the playing side the skillsets are basically identical, it's just the content of the levels. And besides, based on the attitude of the community, the Dumps Included leaderboard one would instantly become the "one that matters" anyway, so might as well let them be ranked in the first place.

Worded it better than I could have probably.