[Rojaf]

Originally Posted by Kaj3

Lol, this is turning into Muslim apologetics 101 now.

because apparently everyone in a group has to answer for the worst part now.

No, don't bring up Christianity when it has no relevance to the discussion. The people that bring up Christianity in these discussions tend to be uneasy when it comes to criticizing Islam and try to desperately to draw false equations to which they inevitably fail.

christianity stops being relevant when christians stop trying to say that islam is the problem. both religions are shit, and saying that one is and the other isnt, or when christians try to take the high road after a mass shooting like this is super disingenuous, because their religion is also responsible for large numbers of LGBT deaths .

Which history am I denying? I am not denying that the Iraq invasion happened, but it's not the direct cause of Islamic terrorism.

you're right. it's just the direct cause of isis.

Islamic terrorism and barbarism has existed for the last a thousand a years or so preceding the existence of the United States and other Western countries.

yep. nice work stating the obvious. lets not mention the thousand or so years of barbarism and terrorism belonging to Christianity. again, selective memory.

Plus, Islamism is a global phenomenon, spanning to regions outside of US influence.

again true, but has absolutely no bearing on the origin of isis.

For example, what does the massacre of over 200 french citizens in Paris that occurred last year have to do with US foreign policy? This is fucking ridiculous.

well it all starts in 2003 when george bush decided to invade iraq. the US went into iraq, destabilized the country and a bunch of small terrorist organizations in iraq decided to join al qaeda to fight the americans. one of these was the organization that would later come to be known as isis. in 2006 we managed to kill their leader zarqawi, and in response they merged with several other groups to form ISI, a precursor to isis (the second s stands for syria so obviously gotta wait until 2011) you know what? just read it yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami...and_the_Levant

what motivated the paris attacks? well this is what isis claims motivated them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Op%C3%A9ration_Chammal

Uhh, you haven't demonstrated that those LGBT deaths are due to religion. The orlando shooter clearly killed gay people for religious reasons.

homophobia doesnt come from nowhere.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The main opponents of the advances of the gay rights movement in Brazil have generally been conservatives. Religion is the most cited reason for opposing gay rights. Regionally, opposition to the gay rights movement has been strongest in rural interior regions.

I get it. History is complex. But what the fuck does any of that have to do with modern-day Islamic barbarism? What is the direct cause of modern day Islamic barbarism? US Foreign Policy? Western Imperialism? Once again reaching to the annals of history to obfuscate the issue. Fascinating.

there are many causes. deciding that there can be only one is some thunderdome bullshit. you bring up the ottoman empire???? and then accuse me of reaching into the annals of history to obfuscate. yes, the ottoman empire was islamic. and the byzantine empire was christian, and the holy roman empire was.. take a wild guess.

You're speaking a lot of gibberish here. What exactly are their motivations rooted in? They have theological grievances. They despise western culture because it's antithetical to their religion. Also, why do you think there is a divide between Shia and Sunni Muslims? The same reason why there is a divide between the many thousands of Christian Denominations. However, Christians don't murder Christians of other denominations. and anti-LGBT terror in America as in instigated by Christians? Are you serious? Now, you're just blowing shit out of proportion.

remember when i mentioned the IRA? one group aligned with one religion wanting to form their own state committing terror against the people of the other group. except in that case there arent like 3 wars already going on in the region.

One Muslim committed the same amount of supposed Christian "LGBT terror" as 35% of the total in the last 8 years in just one night. That's fucking embarrassing.

it would be 25% if the picture i posted was LGBT and not just trans, but i'm starting to expect those kinds of mistakes from you. and that's only in the USA. but you dont like it when we only use one region right? you were getting all mad earlier when i was doing that, so you should probably modify that to be 2%. which is still wrong, because again you're comparing LGBT deaths in orlando to just trans deaths worldwide, but for the sake of argument i'll go with it. 2% would still be really, really bad for one event. hey, look. you dont need to artificially inflate statistics for them to support your argument.

I did state that it matters, but not just the history you're trying to bring into this. What do you think has more relevance to modern day Islamism: Islamic imperialism and Muslim empires such as the Ottoman Empire or US foreign policy and the history of western imperialism?

uhhhh isis in particular? the war in iraq. the war in iraq has way way more to do with isis than the ottoman empire.

even if you blame the ottoman empire (which i dont) where do you think the ottoman empire came from? it was a product of the byzantine empire. one empire systematically replacing another, kind of the story of most of history.

islamic terror in general? hmm probably british colonialism, followed by the creation of israel after world war two, and the cold war where the united states and russia used the countries in the middle east as surrogate fighters, followed by the US involvement in the first gulf war, and finally terrible decision making by starting a war in iraq. does that about cover it?

Not doubting that there are other factors, but the primary motive behind Islamic terror is Islam. Islam is in the title after all.

when it comes to terror perpetrated against the outside world, yes, absolutely. when it comes to terrorism between shia and sunni it is just not that simple.

Simplistic because I don't want to blame Islamism on US foreign policy? This is fucking bonkers.

you're putting words in my mouth again. you're the one saying that islamic terror is just because of islam. my argument is that there are many factors of which islam is just one.

also i think if you replace islam with another religion and replay the events of the last 100 years you're going to get more of a similar response to today than you would if you left islam in place with the US, Russia, etc, being isolationists.

The study you're basing this on is heavily flawed. Do you honestly believe those statistics for Africa are valid? Only 10 murders of LGBT people in hate crimes over the last 8 years?

again, try reading. those are trans and gender diverse people. just the T in LGBT.

We're talking about the most anti-gay region in the world, but the data paints the picture as if it's not. Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

you are.

Nope, you're strawmanning me.

it's clear that you dont know what this means.

Look at my graph again. In the more nuanced graph, I specifically broke it down by specific Muslim categories: Islamists, Muslim nationalists, and the PKK. Over 99% of deaths from terrorism are caused by Muslims, but 85-90% of terrorist deaths are caused by Islamist groups, such as ISIS, Boko Harem, Al Shabab, and so forth.

yes, and when isis kills other muslims in iraq, it is not motivated by religion so much as tribalism.

In what sense? What better identifier do we have for them? You're an anti-labelist or something? Labels exist for a reason. Generalizations exist for a reason. They help us better understand the world around us.

labels are fine, as long as you dont stop there. my issue is with your inability to look beyond the initial labeling, not with the labeling itself.