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-   -   New Engine Suggestion (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=114585)

TC_Halogen 10-17-2010 09:30 AM

New Engine Suggestion
 
Disqualify any scores that use left or right on the engine. Way too many songs become a ton easier (Blooddrunk, Klung Kung 2004, anything with one handed trills).

I'd probably suggest removing the left/right mods from the game, as well.

One Winged Angel 10-17-2010 09:35 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
+1 for the same reasons

Plan_Bsk81127 10-17-2010 09:42 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Blooddrunk yes can make it 10x easier for those who cant do one handed trills, Klung Klung not so much since it has one of each type of trill possible it in so there is no way around not hitting a one handed one. I wouldnt say disqualify the score, but yes most people would rather have it removed.

devonin 10-17-2010 09:45 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
If the options are equally available to everybody, why is it unfair if certain options make certain songs easier? Just also do it that way, and voila.

TC_Halogen 10-17-2010 09:51 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 3313296)
If the options are equally available to everybody, why is it unfair if certain options make certain songs easier? Just also do it that way, and voila.

Yeah, and completely forget about those who got the scores pre-left/right mods because you know, it wasn't available to them. How is that fair? Just like the argument with removing the blue-note songs in game - how is it fair that we had to work our butt off for the songs only to have them (potentially) removed?

Or how removing the background on P4U would be fair to those who AAA'd the song with the background?

psychoangel691 10-17-2010 09:53 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
I have to agree while it may make it easier for me to do the song now and many others there were so many people that worked their butts off to get those scores without the mods. It's kinda like giving a big FU to all those players by making a chart that would normally be a top 11 down to a VC. I like the left/right for fun on certain songs but I really don't think it should count in stats.

Sprite- 10-17-2010 10:07 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
As I am one of those players who had to work my ass off for songs like Blooddrunk, I am a bit biased towards not recording Left or Right modded scores. Although, my bias is probably not a good reason for actually doing it.

We will have to discuss this on our end for a bit.

MrMagic5239 10-17-2010 10:09 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Yay the arguement that basically was the same as "Mirror" has arrived. Within 3 months, everyone will be okay with it!

nois-or-e 10-17-2010 10:11 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3313299)
Yeah, and completely forget about those who got the scores pre-left/right mods because you know, it wasn't available to them. How is that fair?

What about mirror, speedmods, custom key setups?

TC_Halogen 10-17-2010 10:13 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nois-or-e (Post 3313310)
What about mirror, speedmods, custom key setups?

I argued Mirror when it came out but no one did anything about it. Speedmods don't affect me - I can play songs on or below 1x without too much trouble. Custom key setups? I can AAA OMW on the arrow keys, lol.

I don't need any of these luxuries, but I've argued them before. It's unfair to player who got the scores without all of them.

psychoangel691 10-17-2010 10:19 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
While mirror is arguable and has been for a while. It doesn't completely change the chart it just flips it. When you use left or right you are basically completely changing the chart. And while mirror may make some songs slightly easier left/right turns a really hard 11 into a 10 it's a pretty big difference.

Plan_Bsk81127 10-17-2010 10:22 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Its ok that you can still do songs without all of those things, but you need to look at it from other then what your able to do. Not everyone is like that and can go back to the 2004 or whatever year FFR was like that. You cant just nit pick EVERY LITTLE THING that is a possibility in ones ability to do a file better. Lets just resort to making all the files blue notes then while playing on 1x speed, on the arrow keys. Then there is no way anybody is getting scores unfairly because they find a few ways to make things easier for them.......

TC_Halogen 10-17-2010 10:27 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
I'm not looking at things from what I'm able to do - I'm looking at it as a potential exploit for people who CAN'T normally get certain things. Take when the [Oni] list got revised - Radio Heads got removed off of the list; that was quite possibly the best song to get rid of from the [Oni] unlocks. Anyone who mirrors it makes all of the jacks right handed.

Then you have the people who normally can't do certain songs how they are properly charted, popping up on the high score boards because the option is available to them.

Whatever, I won't press the issue anymore. Another way I see it, it's a bit rude to the stepartist who tried picking intricate stepping patterns/techniques only to have the chart completely screwed up. At least on mirror, you can still understand why certain patterns go to certain sounds/aspects. Yes, this may be going too far, but that's just the way that I see it. Staff can figure it out from here. I'd also like to add that when the site was down, left/right was highly frowned upon for certain songs and was prohibited in any tournaments.

C@! 10-17-2010 10:27 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
I agree with disabling the scores, since the charts are pretty much completely changed

OneHandNow 10-17-2010 10:29 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
More options, more possibilities :/

Are we really going to remove the left/right mod just because it makes certain songs easier? Pretty dumb idea if you ask me..

Sprite- 10-17-2010 10:29 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Using left/right does completely change the chart, displaying it in a way the stepartist did not intend, which may be considered disrespectful to the artist. I am going to push for them to be removed.

OneHandNow 10-17-2010 10:32 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprite- (Post 3313321)
Using left/right does completely change the chart, displaying it in a way the stepartist did not intend, which may be considered disrespectful to the artist. I am going to push for them to be removed.

That makes a bit more sense :O (Agrees with Sprite)

Blooddrunk didn't feel like blooddrunk :/

devonin 10-17-2010 10:32 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Having discussed it more with Sprite- I'm of the opinion that given a choice between disabling something as valid, or removing it, I come down on the side of removing it.

I also, having never played with left/right was under the impression that they were only scroll direction modifiers (like playing up or down) and that it would still go left/down/up/right just in a horizontal column and the stepfile would be the same.

Clearly there's more to it if it's actually modifying the way the stepfile is being presented to you. I'd go so far as to argue at that point, that you're no longer actually playing the stepfile as created by the step artist.

I'd remove the options rather than allow them but make the scores not count. That sounds both like more work, and a dick move. Every way the game allows you to play should count.

DossarLX ODI 10-17-2010 10:35 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
If you're going to remove left and right, at least keep mirror. If a file has one handed trills for example, it's still going to have one handed trills, just on the other hand since it's flipped. It's not an unfair mod because if you think about it, what will players that are right handed or left handed do? Sure, others may have AAA'd the file without mirror, but that's because they were able to do everything and they didn't need it. A file with right handed jacks will be hard for someone that excels at left handed jacks. It's a bit unfair with one hand bias if you ask me (and I have experimented with mirror on files like RATO, some parts become easier but some other sections become a LOT harder as well).

And I do agree mirror changes pitch relevancy and all that technical stuff - but do you think the players that are trying to AAA the song care about "expressivemanias"? If they want to play the file like the stepartist wanted, they'll play without mirror. If they want to get the score they should be getting, they can use mirror.

nois-or-e 10-17-2010 10:37 AM

Re: New Engine Suggestion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by psychoangel691 (Post 3313314)
. . .mirror may make some songs slightly easier left/right turns a really hard 11 into a 10 it's a pretty big difference.

Mirror makes some songs easier. And just the same as with left/right, it wasn't available to everyone when the songs were released.
A lot of songs with left/right mod would create more one handed trills than it had to begin with anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127 (Post 3313317)
Lets just resort to making all the files blue notes then while playing on 1x speed, on the arrow keys. Then there is no way anybody is getting scores unfairly because they find a few ways to make things easier for them

iirc, people were using screen flipping methods to replicate mirror before it was in-game. People that can't do something will always find a way to make it easier.

Disabling the scores for one song seems stupid. Might as well make it that you can't record any scores with any mods and the arrows must be going up so you can't ghetto mirror. . .


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