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-   -   El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC) (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=151138)

ULTIMEGA 08-5-2019 10:14 AM

El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
First and foremost, I just wanna make a disclaimer here. I'm not making this thread to start any trouble because it happened either yesterday or the day before. Point being, with the flags being at half mast for the next week across the states, I just wanna get my thoughts out on this.

It saddens me that some people with vile intent would actually take time out of their day to kill 20-30 innocent people who were more than likely going about their day and more or less keeping to themselves or having a friendly chit-chat with friends about whatever. It's 2019, and America has already had over 200 mass shootings in various locations across the country. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if other nations called us "crazy assholes with guns."

It really sickens me that people would pull stupid shit like this, and what's worse is that some people are blaming it on a stupid shirt for being the reason for the shooting. Why? The shirt is completely moot, as is the weapon used. I wanna make the point that while the gun WAS used and is, in effect, involved in the shootings, the REAL thing to put the blame on is the shooter himself. Not the gun, not the shirt. It doesn't matter what the crime is or the method of carrying out said crime. The person committing said crime is ALWAYS at fault. And in 2019, people STILL don't understand this very simple fact.

I get really tired of crap like this and it just puts me in a sour mood if I'm being perfectly honest about it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families and close friends of those victims. As for the shooters, I KNOW they'll get their comeuppance for this.

Again, I'm not trying to stir shit up. I just want to get this out because I feel it needs to be said. Feel free to discuss, but please keep it respectful. We're all a community here, and the last thing I want is for the whole thing to fall apart. Also, if something like this ISN'T allowed, the mods have the right to delete if needed.

devonin 08-5-2019 03:24 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Pretty sure that ready and easy access to guns of that sort absolutely contributes to these things. I mean...there's a reason almost every single one of these shootings of the last several years used the exact same kind of weapon.

People like him exist in every country in the world, but only one of those countries has a massive endemic problem with mass shootings. And there's one clear and obvious difference between the USA and the rest of those countries.

Disenfranchised people? We've got those.
Racists and White Supremacists? We've got those.
Mental Illness? We've got that
Violent video games? We've got that
Bullies in schools who victimize people? We've got that
Access to the internet? We've got that.

We have -every single one- of the things that get trotted out as the "Cause" of these mass killings, except we don't have a constant sequence of mass killings.

You should be asking yourself what's the one thing you have that we don't have.

DaBackpack 08-5-2019 03:36 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Obviously the shooters are the ones responsible, your third paragraph is a red herring. The relevant concern is:

---The weapon dramatically increased the potential damage. 30 casualties (9 deaths) in the span of a single minute is a huge liability for this country. If the dude only had a knife or a pistol the extent of the damage would be much lower and he would be easier to stop. THAT is one of the major principles of gun control.

XelNya 08-5-2019 04:00 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
I'm gonna preface my response with this:

1. I own a pistol for self defense.
2. Equally, I have a license in the state to concealed carry said pistol. I typically do not at the moment, but intend to.


It's 2019, and America has already had over 200 mass shootings in various locations across the country. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if other nations called us "crazy assholes with guns."

We have inner turmoil in the country over gun rights. I'm all personally for being able to own say a pistol, and a non automatic riffle for say hunting, or home defense, along with a shotgun. For someone like me, it's very comforting that at the very least, there is a chance the field is either skewed in my favor, or me and the intruder would possibly be on equal footing. Not really interested in the notions about regulations here though.

It really sickens me that people would pull stupid shit like this, and what's worse is that some people are blaming it on a stupid shirt for being the reason for the shooting. Why? The shirt is completely moot, as is the weapon used. I wanna make the point that while the gun WAS used and is, in effect, involved in the shootings, the REAL thing to put the blame on is the shooter himself. Not the gun, not the shirt. It doesn't matter what the crime is or the method of carrying out said crime. The person committing said crime is ALWAYS at fault. And in 2019, people STILL don't understand this very simple fact.

People are blaming things? I softly disagree, and have to actually say they're led to believe because of how hard media influences choices. To blame the music, or even fucking video games though, is such a far fetched opinion you'd think we'd long be over this by now.

The person had issues, and decided the best way to go about trying to force change (misguided as it is) was to shoot people to get their message heard.

But like I said, it's sort of a moot point in 2019, until these types of people realize that social media is actually the correct way to sway change it's rough. And if someone wants to argue this with me I'm just gonna cite that you need to look at the modern social justice movement, and then get back to me.

We literally have someone in the world, in a nondictatorship, who was tried and convicted of offending the public. You've got to be kidding me.


I get really tired of crap like this and it just puts me in a sour mood if I'm being perfectly honest about it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families and close friends of those victims. As for the shooters, I KNOW they'll get their comeuppance for this.

It sucks, and if better people had surrounded those people maybe it wouldn't have been a thing.

However I disagree that the shooters get their comeuppance. People are going to run their name around, and people now know who they are. They got what they wanted.

Fuck these people though. As much as I fucking hate the use of social media, I'd rather deal with that, than shootings.

devonin 08-5-2019 04:16 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

For someone like me, it's very comforting that at the very least, there is a chance the field is either skewed in my favor, or me and the intruder would possibly be on equal footing.
There were 'good guys with guns' at several of the last few mass killings. In general they either do nothing, or accidentally also kill some innocent people. "good guys with guns" at the Vegas shooting -fired back at the hotel- for god sakes.

In El Paso, police were on the scene in 6 minutes, by which time 20 were already dead.

In Dayton, the police stopped him THIRTY SECONDS after he started firing, by their own reports. In that 30 seconds, 9 died and 27 more were injured.

With respect, your gun is not protecting anybody from these people.

Funnygurl555 08-5-2019 04:30 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
people were talking about this on the discord briefly yesterday.

personally i think everyone should have a gun, for self-defense (or, fuck it, whatever). there's no need for an automatic weapons or any of those things where you can fire a ton of bullets at once. (idk about guns; dunno the terminology.) evidently, the harm greatly outweighs any potential benefits (edit: i said it was only harmful before. someone could /probably/ think of a potential benefit)

obvious restrictions should be on people with either a violent criminal history or people who are seriously mentally ill (i.e. have potential to harm themselves or others). so, i support background checks, but i'm wary of a system where the government can control who could be armed or not, because that historically works against disenfranchised groups.

i'm very against banning firearms in public spaces that don't have adequate protective measures in place. at my old job, no one could carry firearms, but safety against shooters was so bad they were soft telling us we were fucked at training. that's... scary.

edit: @devonin what America also has that Canada and other countries don't is a culture of mass shootings.

@ULTIMEGA if the "shirts" are MAGA shirts, .... well... sorry to be all political on you, but the current political climate rn is fostering the growth of anti-immigrant sentiments. the link between Trump's rhetoric and mass shootings against minorities isn't causal, but the former is a contributing factor to the latter.

devonin 08-5-2019 04:33 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

personally i think everyone should have a gun, for self-defense
I can't even begin to describe what a bad idea this is, supported by literally all the evidence.

Funnygurl555 08-5-2019 04:38 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 4690963)
I can't even begin to describe what a bad idea this is, supported by literally all the evidence.

hey i said there should be restrictions

DaBackpack 08-5-2019 04:50 PM

Man it would be really swell if the NRA would let the CDC investigate gun violence.

But instead they decided to be complicit with white nationalism, oh well.

Like for fuck's sake, when are we going to have the testicular fortitude to stand up and say "enough is enough"? This is disgraceful.

Oh wait, I forgot, capitalism is the only moral framework that matters in this country. Fuck me

XelNya 08-5-2019 05:03 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 4690961)
With respect, your gun is not protecting anybody from these people.

Let me elaborate.

In that situation, I am disinterested in using mine to defend anyone but myself, and anyone who is with me I care about personally. Random strangers? I can't say I particularly care about saving any of them unless the correct type of opportunity is presented.

Do I think it'll help in a mass situation? No. That's not why I bought it.

devonin 08-5-2019 05:07 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Well I hope for your sake that you don't join the majority statistic of people who own a gun for home defense, and use it, discovering that they've accidentally shot the aforementioned people you care about personally.

DaBackpack 08-5-2019 05:12 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4690968)
Let me elaborate.

In that situation, I am disinterested in using mine to defend anyone but myself, and anyone who is with me I care about personally. Random strangers? I can't say I particularly care about saving any of them unless the correct type of opportunity is presented.

Do I think it'll help in a mass situation? No. That's not why I bought it.

doop

Yeah I know 1993 but if that matters check the 1998 correction or any of the articles that cite this one

EDIT: Not as a complete dissuasion, I understand that gun ownership in the home can provide some sense of security and safety, just keep in mind that there is indeed a tradeoff here

Sanjixcon 08-5-2019 05:31 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
I wonder how many stories don't get reported when a "good guy with a gun" saves the day.

devonin 08-5-2019 05:34 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sanjixcon (Post 4690971)
I wonder how many stories don't get reported when a "good guy with a gun" saves the day.

Given the extent to which the media falls all over itself to do anything BUT criticize guns, and given how many networks constantly push the 'good guy with a gun' narrative, I would hazard a guess that all of the stories where they save the day get reported.

The last time I heard a story of a good guy with a gun actually getting involved in the actions going on, the bouncer of a bar who had a gun saved the day, and then when the police arrived, since he was black and had a gun, murdered him.

Sanjixcon 08-5-2019 05:36 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
so guns are always bad? unless your a non-racist cop..

devonin 08-5-2019 05:37 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
That's the kind of false equivocation that gets trotted out any time somebody levels a reasonable criticism against America's lax gun laws.

"We should improve gun control somewhat"
"So you think all guns should be ripped out of our hands and destroyed?!?!"

Sanjixcon 08-5-2019 05:40 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
Lol i'm saying there are times where having a "good guy with a gun" around can be a very good thing. It's not black and white.

devonin 08-5-2019 05:42 PM

Can you even show me, say...five such cases in the last 10 years? And then argue whether those cases justify the offsetting hundreds and hundreds of not prevented mass shootings?

If the cost of 'good guys with guns' who might get to save the day 1 in every 2000 mass murders is the other 1999 mass murders, I don't think you're arguing a very sustainable point.

From the study that DBP linked above:

Quote:

We found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
Owning a gun puts you at a larger risk of being murdered, not a lower one.

Sanjixcon 08-5-2019 06:01 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
I looked and found several different sites that have way more than 5 cases and you can easily find them with a quick google search (litterally top links on the first page). But I didn't want to get into a stats/math argument with you I was more just wanting to bring the consensus on "guns are always a bad thing" more towards the middle where I believe the truth lies.

devonin 08-5-2019 06:02 PM

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 
I'll go out on a limb and say that yes, civilian gun ownership for purposes besides hunting and sport shooting is always a bad thing.

Edit: I suppose on further reflection, I need to explicitly account for people who live in rural/farm areas where there are actual animal predators capable of killing livestock etc, but I mostly lump that in with hunting.


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