Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

(as art or professionals)

https://youtu.be/XWbfP85ETkQ

I thought this clip from JRE might lead to an interesting discussion here

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Watched til 4:15 and decided that there wasn't much of an interesting discussion to really be had here.

I will add though that video games and gamersare getting way more respect and continue to do so over the last decade; I feel like the viewpoint that they are inheritedly harmful or less then any other passive art (like looking at a painting in Italy or whatever) is the minority and on the way out. Once the old timers who are convinced it's just an addiction exit the conversation then there isn't gonna be a conversation

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

yeah you need to watch the whole thing, because other more nuanced discussions do take place that are more than just "do games make people addicted and violent". the people discussing do admit its subversive to older people because its unexpected and weird to make a career "playing a game". But when they start comparing it to games like Snooker and Chess, or even Golf, I can see where it gets muddy. The previous examples I listed are technically "sports", and usually being an athlete garners more respect, but I'd argue these sports have a much higher "mental" skill cap than a "physical execution" skill cap, though they all do require you to be able to "Execute" your mental plan in order to do "well". For example, you can have all the knowledge of geometry and physics in the world, but if you can't shoot pool or swing a golf club well, you won't be able to excel to the top ranks. Some of these games require a similar, albeit small, level of physical dexterity or skill to "Execute" and perform well, but most people don't give the same amount of respect or attention to a fortnite pro as they would a top ranking PGA golfer. Definitely not in a monetary sense, and almost assuredly the golfer would get more respect in social situations.

Another example that stuck out to me is Picasso's rendition of a World War 2 bombing as a painting is often lauded as a masterpiece, however, we can see many examples of "modern" artistry in renditions of warfare for video games. even in their pre-rendered cutscenes, there is a real amount of artistry that comes to bringing accurate and emotional portrayals of these events to screens to captivate the player, but I don't think anyone would compare the work that goes into a cutscene or even an entire level of a game to art on that scale, even though some games excel in delivering those experiences (eg. CoD is not really a good game, imo, per se, but damn if it doesn't do a good job of telling a great story sometimes. World at War is still one of my favourite games for how it portrays the soviet campaign to berlin)

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I would argue that the physical cap for both golf and chess (professionally) is much, much higher than 99% of people would figure

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

where they say that older folks don't respect vid games because they don't like what they don't understand

i think that's basically it.

the dude with the hair kept stumbling over himself, which made me wonder why i was even listening to the guy. but i mean i guess it's good that they're talking about it

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

But its a much more technical and precise physical cap, which I think opens it up to comparison to say, playing a game with a controller and being able to nail precise "shots" in a game with insanely consistent accuracy. What about an Osu! Tablet player? Shit, even DDR/ITGI would also say requires a certain degree of physicality, but just like golfing, neither require you to be necessarily "fit" to compete, just dexterous, or at most, they only need to display their physicality for short bursts. One of the most physically challenging aspect of golf, in my opinion, is the challenge of lugging a bag of clubs through 18 holes, which can be discarded because most times the pros pay someone to do it for them, or amateurs just rent a cart. The other aspect (actually hitting the ball) requires some degree of physicality, but its definitely a precision act as well. When you get off the tee, and start taking your 2nd and 3rd shots, you could even argue that some of the "raw power" elements are also discarded, as "crushing" the ball generally gets you nowhere as far as accuracy goes.

Professional chess I'd argue isn't physical at all. It is extremely mentally taxing, however. Especially if you are timed. I think all "pro" chess is timed, right? But on the scale of physical requirements, if you can lift your arm, you can play chess. If you can lift your arm and have extreme mental fortitude, you can play chess *well*. Keep in mind that I am not limiting "physical skill" to just displays of raw power, but also dexterity and speed. I'd wager that Chess takes no raw power, and almost no dexterity and speed. However, the extreme mental capacity required to play chess *well* under the stress of time is probably "maxed out".

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

my knowledge of the physicality of golf is quite limited
look up a video of like 1-minute chess and you'll see that there's a ton of both dexterity and speed sometimes
actually, I'll not be lazy for once

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLp2UbBNm0s
(skip to about 3:30)
and yes, I know this was not a "professional" game but its not unheard of to see professional players making moves this quickly under certain time controls

its a bit more than "if you can pick up the piece and think quickly, you can play chess *well*"

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Sorry but I'm failing to see how that doesn't just boil down to fast thinking and the ability to move the pieces, except for maybe the fact that memory has to be factored in, in the case that the other player might cheat. Surely thinking slowly isn't a benefit, so being quick thinking as well as forward thinking to all the possible moves of your opponent, seem to be the major "physical" factors to chess, besides moving the pieces. Am I missing something here? I put physical in quotes because I hesitate to call these physical traits, maybe extensions of mental ability, but traditional physical training will obviously have no great return on the ability to play chess. When I say speed, I mean movement speed and the endurance to keep that speed, not the speed of which one has to move an object on a board. Likewise, speed does not factor into Snooker at all for this reason. There is no benefit to being fast in Snooker. Likewise, the only benefit (as I see it) to being fast in chess is to execute the action of moving your piece to where you wish it to go before expelling too much time. This naturally ties into and correlates with being able to think quick.

I should clarify when I say "think quick" I mean in the context of a chess match, I.E. being able to analyze the board and its possibilities, sometimes many moves in advance, as well as analyzing your opponent, their strategy, and sometimes even their past strategy if you have that data available.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

"cheating" at the upper level just doesn't exist, and iirc the players must take notation of their opponents moves anyways so memory isn't even a factor (cheating using phones or earpieces to be fed optimal moves would be much more common, but that's another kind of cheating and not relevant)

I think it might surprise you to learn that older chess players do better under quicker time controls (the rapid chess champion was once over 70) and there is significant drop-off in age<->rating under slower time controls.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I was going to put that in my post, that I assume cheating is non-existent at higher levels of play because they are recorded and studied, so there would be no way of pulling it off, but in professional "Street" chess like in the video shown, theres really nothing stopping me from trying to pull some bullshit to win a wager against you? i still don't think you have addressed anything to do with my ideas of the "physicality" of chess. I did not say that age and mental acuity or even physical strength are mutually exclusive. If I did, or implied it somehow, that was my mistake.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

heyheyhey it's ya girl out here requesting some recognition for watching a 10+ min video by joe rogan

thx fam

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

At the extreme top end of Professional Chess, a Super GM will lose nearly 12 pounds over the course of a tournament.

That level of focus, attention, and effort spikes blood pressure, increases heart rate. All of the top players now approach it like a more traditional sport.

They have personal trainers, dietitians, take more care to have downtime between tournaments, it is -very- physically demanding as well as mentally.

Heck, Magnus had a spike in performance by developing a better physical sitting position to put less strain on his neck and shoulders.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I wonder if day long magic tournaments have the same results
could explain a lot

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

At the extreme high levels like, the top 8 cut of a world championship or pro tour, the mental taxing can be something like on par.

The physical demands of spending 10 hours in a chair while trying to be mentally alert are definitely up there.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

does it explain the amount of asscrack? thanks for putting it into perspective for me btw Dev. How long is a typical chess tournament? One week?

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

The major ones tend to be about 10 days, and you'll play 5 or 6 games.

At that level, you can burn around 6000 calories in a day where you play, and their blood pressure hangs around competitive marathon runner levels.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

i enjoy these facts you are posting

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Fun chess fact:

The 1984 World Chess Championship between Karpov and Kasparov was to be decided "First to 6 wins"

Five months and 48 games later, with the record standing at Karpov 5, Kasparov 3 and 40 draws, the Championship was cancelled, due to the strain on the health of the players. Karpov had lost 20 pounds.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

decades ago, being a pro chess player (if the term pro can be applied) was not prestigious
you were basically considered a professional gambler

I think that, in decades to come, professional gaming will experience a similar change (not to say that I think people view gamers as gamblers, but the addict part could apply) and it will eventually become more prestigious to be a professional gamer

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I don't think anybody currently views Pro Chess as anything like Gambling, and it's probably considered one of the peak pure skill pursuits to which one could apply themselves (I'd say Go, but it has less global appeal by an order of magnitude)

There's been a strong push in the last 5-8 years to bring eSports into the same sphere as traditional sports, and a lot of them have plenty of similarities and with marketing and budgets behind them, they've definitely become a legitimate career path for people who have the facility with them.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Did not know these chess facts, pretty neat

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Had no clue chess players burned that many calories, that is indeed interesting. the blood pressure statement means nothing though and can extend to almost anything with a lot of tension/pressure regardless of being physical

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

It's the "sustaining blood pressure at those levels for multiple consecutive hours" part.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Yea again sustained elevated blood pressure is not a great metric for this. People with bad anxiety can go to work and have similar elevated blood pressure just sitting at a desk trying to do paperwork all day lol

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

But I guess if the point is saying that high level chess tournaments are mentally taxing and physically draining then yes it seems that is true

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I feel like there is a definitely a feed back loop people fall into regardless of their subsequent initial subjection to what games they pursue, but after the fact remains easier to rationalize involvement by having their evolution of logic influenced by the very nature of time and sought after virtue.

A game is a game but can we not admit life is in fact a game? My rough understanding at face value is that a game is some thing to be played and serves merely to obtain some ones attention by design - games using such qualities of vibe being a fusion of all genres of art in theory can't not be attractive. Life with the potential subject of debate suggesting you don't merely get to 'play' life or at least not all the time is a contrast with in another contrast serving to separate this blurry line of a game and our conscious existence.

Being good at some thing is an amazing feeling and one that no can buy or pretend to have - and while I can understand people taking the stance of life before a game, its the process of living in a window of you're life time that allows you the luxury of defining what has purpose to you and makes life worth living at all :v

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Games, to me are a specific and distinct things with qualitative difference between games, sports, activities etc.

So "Life is a game" while very Shakespearean isn't how I'd choose to define it, or use the word in a thread that is more directly dealing with ludology.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Today I looked up what Ludology meant

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

well I mean games reside in "life" so life isn't exactly a game unless its purpose or definition was akin to a game like being entertained or if we were literally just here to play 8u

It's all differing from person to person in their preference but for me I've described it before as being a trial with many under and over tones putting ones susceptibility to the test of principal.

edit: but on the basis of the thread topics title as a question: is more respect deserved?? I think not. Respect is some thing that I view as a choice of an individual to give. Not receiving respect from everyone wont change likewise some ones choice to engage/embrace them either.

the idea of "more" respect might only be a matter of time with the upbringing of these newer generations, video games will only become more respected the greater leaps they make in all aspects. That to me is truly deserving of respect if some thing can change with the times and then peoples minds.

demanding respect though, I wouldn't be able to wrap my head around that.

editv2: lastly, I think its probably important to consider the context of said respect were it might matter more than not: If some one is in the same sphere as some one deliberately to make a point of "disrespecting" them when they themselves are a universe away from that kind of respect then under those terms could be construed as ignorant and of certain loss.

It seems possible that some one could not technically go out of their way to "respect" gaming to some level of acceptance deemed by a avid member of a community but then don't necessarily look down upon it accept with in exceptions of certain limits of their feasibility to weigh their own ideals :v

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

This is part of why the eSports industry is using the term eSports and not referring to what's being done as "playing games" because games and sports are distinct kinds of things.

I don't understand what you're trying to say by saying "is more respect deserved?? I think not. Respect is some thing that I view as a choice of an individual to give" because those two things aren't mutually exclusive at all.

You the individual can choose to respect professional athletes or not as a class or individuals as you like, but the question is about the greater societal perception of the field as a career, as a pursuit and as a spectacle to watch.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

short answer: no

long answer: hell no

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Or is it about a societal perception needing to be greater than it already is?

Clearly some one has to resonate on a particular wave length to view some thing as a spectacle and not ironically falling short of some thing they find impressive even practically in the same degree of cognitive ability.

Its more like people have weird rules for what fits their idea of a true accomplishment although only as weird as others perceive them.

also hold on, whats not mutually exclusive?? Sounds like you have a random bone to pick with my opinion on the topic :P talk about a dead on target of my post.

edit:
I think what I was saying can be taken for face value?? I'm under the impression that a thread title such as this was more of curiosity and elaboration on other angles for conversation :v

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I thought for sure this thread was going to be like a "Rise up oppressed gamers!!!!" meme

eSports are just as valid as real sports

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

at the end of the day you can basically sum up every single thing that the "public/common media" is against or doesn't respect etc as "it would make us less money", in 100% of situations i feel this is true

esports dont have tons of trainers and coaches and shit and they dont have dedicated tv channels etc yet, so theyre perceived as worth less than regular sports

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Some of those drone races they do in stadiums are sick, I had only heard about it for the first time as a concept from a friend but then had seen it on tv at a irish pub and eatery and was like o cool.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

For the question in the thread title, it really depends on what aspect we're respecting in what a video game is.

The question specifically for gamers, however...

It depends on context, but in majority of cases, that's a flat "no" no matter how much you slice it up. Gamers are consumers and hobbyist for the most part. The only way someone labeled as a "gamer" would get respect is if said person is using the title for a good cause. Like charity fundraising or what have you. I don't believe eSports has the same amount of respect outside of a franchise.

For example, would you have respect for a Smash Ultimate top player if you're not interested in competitive Smash?

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

no

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Do gamblers and lootbox gamblers deserve more respect?

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I no longer remember what Ludology means

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

This is a bit of a leading question in that you're subtly inferring that gamers / video games do not earn the amount of respect they deserve.

This is an incredibly subjective discussion and I think we need to use some common sense here. On the one end of the spectrum you have WoW guy from South Park (plus the main characters) who have a toxic nd addictive relationship with games, and many of these stereotypical gamers exist. There's actually a term in Japan for this behaviour - Hikikomori which is becoming more and more prevalent.

The other end of the spectrum is one of balance where video games and gamers take a more hobbyist approach while also earning an education, working, and building a stronger resume so they can be self-sufficient.

In some instances you have gifted gamers and content creators that can actually earn a living solely by playing games. This is akin to becoming drafted by the NBA or some high position that is extremely competitive. You could compare it to winning the lottery, who knows.

Again, common sense thoughts here but I think gamers "earn" their requisite respect so long as they understand that earning a living from gaming is damned rare and they should have another career picked out in the event their Plan A fails.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

im still out here requesting recognition for watching a Joe Rogan video

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

it's ok, the Japanese will have a word for that type of behavior soon

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

gamers deserve negative respect and should also probably be kept on a list akin to that of sex offenders

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

true!
anyone who has even thought about playing a game should be euthanized imo

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

i like dynamo's perspective bringing points.

another question is respect from whom? the main stream media? 60+ year olds? video games are still quite new. if someone doesn't understand something there will be a disconnect in general. id be interested to revisit this question when everyone alive was born into the internet age and being old doesn't mean video games are foreign. personally i don't see gamers not getting respect from ppl who understand video games especially during covid

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Everyone deserves respect.

I don't understand why someone would deserve more respect.

[leaves thread confused]

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

actually unironically yes

maybe yes but not as much as video games themselves

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

if one of the first things you self-identify as is a gamer I probably don't like you

also Joe Rogan sucks ass and always has

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

pretty sure most of us are aware of the difference between a gamer and a Gamer

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I respect you melonpapes

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

not everyone who disrespects gamers doesn't understand them but for the vast majority it comes from a place of ignorance and joe rogan would def. qualify as a boomer who doesn't understand the hobby and market. i still like him tho

edit: one word that doesn't get used enough in our culture these days is tolerance. not everyone has the same lvl of knowledge on everything and when we speak our minds it isn't always perfect. im sure there's things i would say to rogan that he would understand better and i hope he would tolerate me as well

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

this describes my thoughts in a concise way. thanks Choof 👍

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Oh.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

read my post
we aren't talking about people who play video games/hobbyists, we're talking about a specific identity, aka Gamers, that meet various stereotypes and quite frankly make the rest of us who enjoy video games look bad. you know, the kinds of people who bitch and moan about "politics in video games" when a developer decides to add a female character with dark skin, or the kinds of people who stopped playing wow because the new customization lets you look like an actual black person and black people don't exist in european fantasy. both of those examples are 100% true btw.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

idk if they're a vocal minority or what but it seems like every time a video game gets released that even remotely "panders" you can finds these kinds of people in droves
let me be clear, there is no problem whatsoever with enjoying a good video game. there is a problem if you're getting mad at the existence of a gay npc, simply for being gay.

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

absolutely this pretty much

Additionally--- I would say in general, if your entire personality revolves around one single thing, whether it be video games, Harry Potter, dubstep, Catholicism, etc. then you (general you, not "MML you") are not a well-developed person and probably not super interesting.

I see it all the time on dating sites tbh. Someone's bio will say "I love Harry Potter!! I'm a Hufflepuff with Ravenclaw tendencies :smile:" or... "I love The Office! Looking for the Jim to my Pam..." etc. It's boring as fuck and doesn't get me excited about talking to you. Same with gaming.

I'm absolutely for loving niche hobbies! Just be sure you're able to hold conversations about different topics or else it'll get old real fast.

...And like, there's no problem putting hobbies in your dating profile, but "I like Harry Potter!" tells me nothing. We all like Harry Potter. If you wanna put your interests in your profile make it some weird shit. "I like doujin music", "I like slasher films", "I like gemcraft", those at least set you apart from everyone else!

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

I like Peggle

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

this may be (i.e., hopefully is) true, but the only reason to make a serious post in a thread with this name is to try to clarify the distinction for people who aren't on twitter. (imo)

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

Guys guys

I was joking

I got what you actually meant lol

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

your right i'mstill gameing

Re: Do video games and gamers deserve more respect?
 

+1