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-   -   FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4 (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=121459)

stavie33 12-7-2011 02:55 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yo man im awesome (Post 3585742)
You know, there's something I don't understand:

Why is it people can't just play a file and say they like it or not? Why is it they have to scrutinize every last detail like, for example, let's say it was 1 3 2 4, but the person stepped 4231. Everyone just seems to btich and whine about it and claim that a file is then bad because of it (clearly an exaggeration, but I'm trying to make a point). I don't understand why judges look for correct-ness in a file rather than how fun it is. Shouldn't that matter? I mean, how many new players (and I mean new, not switching from SM) are gonna see the difference, let alone care? Those new players are going to want to play a fun game; they could care less how "correct" it is. I don't think we ever should have invented crap like "PR" or anything like that. Because now that's all people think about when they step. There are very few files that are still being made/being accepted for the fun anymore. There are even less people out there who believe the fun factor is important anymore. To be honest, I think we have less stepartists now not because of the site crash, but because we've scared everyone into thinking that getting their file accepted is all but impossible. I think our judging system (and our way of thinking for stepping) should be completely overhauled and returned to the main idea of fun and entertainment.

/mad
A fun file is the most desirable, but a fun file is almost always a good file. You can't have a bad file and have it be fun. An incorrect file can be fun, but not a bad file. A bad file implies it's un-enjoyable to play or not synced/stepped to something completely different, which would then juxtapose the music and have it be less enjoyable. Correctness is one thing, but if the judges find a file fun, it generally gets a positive review. I've never seen 'this file is a blast to play! But it's so horribly stepped we have to give it a -'.

who_cares973 12-7-2011 02:58 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yo man im awesome (Post 3585742)
You know, there's something I don't understand:

Why is it people can't just play a file and say they like it or not? Why is it they have to scrutinize every last detail like, for example, let's say it was 1 3 2 4, but the person stepped 4231. Everyone just seems to btich and whine about it and claim that a file is then bad because of it (clearly an exaggeration, but I'm trying to make a point). I don't understand why judges look for correct-ness in a file rather than how fun it is. Shouldn't that matter? I mean, how many new players (and I mean new, not switching from SM) are gonna see the difference, let alone care? Those new players are going to want to play a fun game; they could care less how "correct" it is. I don't think we ever should have invented crap like "PR" or anything like that. Because now that's all people think about when they step. There are very few files that are still being made/being accepted for the fun anymore. There are even less people out there who believe the fun factor is important anymore. To be honest, I think we have less stepartists now not because of the site crash, but because we've scared everyone into thinking that getting their file accepted is all but impossible. I think our judging system (and our way of thinking for stepping) should be completely overhauled and returned to the main idea of fun and entertainment.

/mad
this is spoken by someone who is on the outside looking in. i dont even want to get into this argument again because its been recycled who knows how many times now and i really dont feel like repeating what ive said and what many others have said. but know this, you're wrong on so many levels

stavie33 12-7-2011 02:58 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3585746)
woo boy, after getting a taste of Halcyon by playing for the AAA, I've got to say, that file is WICKED hard for a FMO. I like it though, because it stands out as something that doesn't quite fit as a FGO in structure.

Top of the line FMO, me thinks.

SAMBISTA gave me a few problems because backward rolling + up/down arrow beginning = LOL nope. Very high VC.

The other files were fun too - I can't decide between Kayla's file and bmah's wiinter dream for the best flowing file; both were really clean.

Jumper was alright. Nothing wrong with it, but a bit out of my tastes due to the nature of the song (a bit too simple).
I'll agree with this and consider no further discussion. Hardest FMO most def, but not quite FGO style. I agree.

yo man im awesome 12-7-2011 03:00 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stavie33 (Post 3585748)
A fun file is the most desirable, but a fun file is almost always a good file. You can't have a bad file and have it be fun. An incorrect file can be fun, but not a bad file. A bad file implies it's un-enjoyable to play or not synced/stepped to something completely different, which would then juxtapose the music and have it be less enjoyable. Correctness is one thing, but if the judges find a file fun, it generally gets a positive review. I've never seen 'this file is a blast to play! But it's so horribly stepped we have to give it a -'.
While yes, I don't think that's ever happened, I'm sure that files have rejected by more than a few points solely for incorrectness.

Take Dossar for example, he does a great job makin a really fun, difficult file without PR or overdoing it (see, Kidney Stone). Dossar is one of my favorite artists for that very reason.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by who_cares973 (Post 3585751)
this is spoken by someone who is on the outside looking in. i dont even want to get into this argument again because its been recycled who knows how many times now and i really dont feel like repeating what ive said and what many others have said. but know this, you're wrong on so many levels

I can imagine how wrong I am, but I'm a stepartist too (not experienced very much at all, but enough to get around), and I know just how intimidating the file is. I can also understand how much this argument has been regurgitated at you, and I can understand you not wanting to repeat yourself. I unfortunately was absent for these arguments, and I would really like to hear the other side of this.

who_cares973 12-7-2011 03:01 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
kidney stone is a shitty file

that statement is justified

yo man im awesome 12-7-2011 03:04 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by who_cares973 (Post 3585757)
kidney stone is a shitty file

that statement is justified
In what way, how 'incorrect' it is, or is there a lack of fun? Because fun is subjective yes, and while correct-ness isn't, fun should still overtake it in priority.

who_cares973 12-7-2011 03:14 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
i never said the file was incorrect i said it was shitty. the only way it would be incorrect would be if he placed ghost notes in the file which he didnt.

saying that fun should overtake priority is really really stupid because of the reason you said, fun is subjective and changes with every person. if i were to judge files based on fun i wouldve rejected more than 75% of the files that ive judged for ffr because i didnt find a majority of them fun. would you still say that fun should take over the correctness of a file? no. its the way its stepped that makes it shitty. the patterns he chose the bpm he chose and the transitions that are used. the file is pretty much stepped as hard as it can be without taking anything else into consideration. while i dont think this is entirely done on purpose because the caliber of the step artist determines what patterns are used its up to the step artist to take other players into consideration when stepping a file.

bob bob 12-7-2011 03:18 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
D5 file is bad































very bad

Mike Weedmark 12-7-2011 03:19 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by who_cares973 (Post 3585757)
kidney stone is a shitty file

that statement is justified
It really is, along with DeVour. wc, I agree with almost every post I see you make on a lot of things :P

Quote:
Anyway, what I and Gundam-Dude said. What the hell does the file rating change?
I know this question was rhetorical, but honestly, it changes what I land on when I set the difficulty to 11-11 and click random. I don't always want to land on stuff that makes Grist and Blue Rose feel like a cakewalk when I was looking for something closer to Floating Hour. It's one of those things that seems like a nothing-problem until you've actually had it chip away at YOUR patience too.

It's also the principle. I don't want to have to say there are still FMOs I potentially get TDG on. It hurts my fingerpride :cry:

who_cares973 12-7-2011 03:23 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weedmark (Post 3585775)
It really is, along with DeVour. wc, I agree with almost every post I see you make on a lot of things :P
the only reason devour is in game is because of how many times xander send that god damned file to the batch and how tired all the judges were of playing it. also sweet :D


Quote:
Originally Posted by yo man im awesome (Post 3585754)
EDIT:


I can imagine how wrong I am, but I'm a stepartist too (not experienced very much at all, but enough to get around), and I know just how intimidating the file is. I can also understand how much this argument has been regurgitated at you, and I can understand you not wanting to repeat yourself. I unfortunately was absent for these arguments, and I would really like to hear the other side of this.
there is more to stepping a file than just technicality. ALSO FUN-NESS OF A FILE IS THE SUM OF ALL ASPECTS OF STEPPING AND NOT SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED BY ITSELF.

technicality
fluidity
music relevance

these are the three things that make up FUN and depending on the song at hand and the stepartist there are varying degrees of each that go into the final file. until people realize this no one will get anywhere and it'll just be idiots running in circles chasing their own asses

iironiic 12-7-2011 03:24 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Since there are so many debatable files in terms of difficulty, why can't we just let high VCs + low FMOs be a new difficulty and high FMOs + low FGOs be a new difficulty? That way we'll have a 15 point scale and will probably be a temporary fix to the tension that is clearly apparent in this thread.

Also, I think we are all being confused and are arguing whether this file should be this or that difficulty because we don't know what to look for in difficulty. All of you guys have mentioned valid points, so an ideal and I suppose "most true" difficulty compensates the points all of you guys brought up.

Personally, I'd like to use files currently in game to help give me an idea as to what difficulty the new file is but that's a problem if people are still arguing whether FN or Lolo or any old file should be this difficulty or that. We need to be consistent overall with difficulty placements and put aside our strengths and weaknesses to come up with this value.

EDIT: Also keep in mind... as a community, all of our voices must be heard. This includes the people who are not capable of FCing these FMOs and FGOs. I encourage you guys to speak up because I'm tired of listening to only a few people arguing over these difficulties. It would be nice to have a D1's views on harder files.

TC_Halogen 12-7-2011 03:34 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Carlos: what do you mean by the sum of all stepping in a file? It almost seems like you're trying to say that a file has to have correctness in order to even be taken into consideration as a fun file, which is far from true.

I have no issue in bringing up a few files that lack in chart structure but still feel fun, like Dossar's {Lazy Summer Days} file on his brutality engine. Chart itself is created poorly (subjectivemanias) but it flows well and has a ton of replayability because of how fast it is. It's something that I find fun, but I can separate it from being a correct file.

Mike Weedmark 12-7-2011 03:40 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iironiic (Post 3585779)
It would be nice to have a D1's views on harder files.
I agree with this, but it still makes me laugh. I imagine most of their responses to D5 and D6 stuff would be the same as mine used to: "how do you even do this shit without hacking? :/" hahahahaha

who_cares973 12-7-2011 03:41 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3585783)
Carlos: what do you mean by the sum of all stepping in a file? It almost seems like you're trying to say that a file has to have correctness in order to even be taken into consideration as a fun file, which is far from true.

I have no issue in bringing up a few files that lack in chart structure but still feel fun, like Dossar's {Lazy Summer Days} file on his brutality engine. Chart itself is created poorly (subjectivemanias) but it flows well and has a ton of replayability because of how fast it is. It's something that I find fun, but I can separate it from being a correct file.
proper sync and layering contribute to the correctness of a file. a file doesnt need to be 100% technical 100% fluid or 100% relevant to the music to be fun but there is always a percentage no matter how small that is contributed from each

Mike Weedmark 12-7-2011 03:43 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
I don't know if my input is relevant, but a file I've always considered one of the funnest I've ever played is WAIWAI230. If you can figure out why that files rules my world so hard, you'd probably have a good starting point for rating any file. I think it's obvious it has to start with a song that's a joy to listen to.

iironiic 12-7-2011 03:44 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weedmark (Post 3585787)
I agree with this, but it still makes me laugh. I imagine most of their responses to D5 and D6 stuff would be the same as mine used to: "how do you even do this shit without hacking? :/" hahahahaha
Well even if they can support their reasoning whether file A is harder than file B, that is at least something that can help us reach that "true difficulty." I'm sure they are really likely to say that and that's alright haha.

who_cares973 12-7-2011 03:47 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weedmark (Post 3585790)
I don't know if my input is relevant, but a file I've always considered one of the funnest I've ever played is WAIWAI230. If you can figure out why that files rules my world so hard, you'd probably have a good starting point for rating any file. I think it's obvious it has to start with a song that's a joy to listen to.
if i could figure out why you consider waiwai230 to be one of the funnest files you've ever played it would just be a good starting point for rating any file for YOU not the community as a whole


Quote:
Originally Posted by iironiic (Post 3585791)
Well even if they can support their reasoning whether file A is harder than file B, that is at least something that can help us reach that "true difficulty." I'm sure they are really likely to say that and that's alright haha.
the problem with this is that their reasoning for why file A is harder than file B will rely solely on how well they can mash and read the patterns in a file which is entirely dependent on the person. there is no way to assign difficulty to files when there are people involved because no two people are the same

Coolboyrulez0 12-7-2011 03:55 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
If Halcyon isnt FGO then I ragequit

1617-41-4-2-15 first run lmfao

also, tourney was fun while it lasted...

PS: I disagree with the majority and would say that most, if not all the files where pretty awesome and appropriate for their chosen Divisions.

00Razor00 12-7-2011 03:58 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR4EVA_00 (Post 3585668)
d6 people don't give a shit about the ratings of songs that are easy for them
As a D6 player, I concur.

TheSaxRunner05 12-7-2011 04:24 PM
Re: FFR 6th Official Tourney Songs Discussion: Round 4
 
1 Attachment(s)
Fun file angel, I'd be much happier though if my comp didn't have a massive lag spike in the last 1% of the song and trigger autofail, ruining my BF =(


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