Do you think abortion should be legal?

[Layladay]

I do not think abortion should be legal. Im saying that for religion and politics. If killing (murder) is illegal and you get punished for it, why is abortion different? what they do is stick sciccors through the baack of the baby's neck, and suck all the brains out of them. People think " Its MY baby, so ill do what i want, but It would be difficult to find a pro-life person who isn't aware of the negative psychological aftermath of abortion, commonly known as Post-Abortion Syndrome. For most, it conjures up a rather vague vision of her feeling considerable personal guilt and regret at having had the abortion. Frequently one's knowledge of this comes from having known a friend who suffers from this problem. For a few readers, this is intensely personal, as it is they, personally, who are hurting. The purpose of this article is to briefly set forth the problem and its symptoms, and then to discuss in more detail how each of you can help such a woman. Even without all that mental stuff, i still think abortion should be illegal because its still considered killing.

[ImEric12]

I think abortion is fine, but not partial-birth abortion.

[fusi0n]

Repeat topic.

[djshox]

Every abortion debate leads nowhere except flaming. This should be locked.

[Sudden2]

Isnt a baby not consitered a "human" until after the embryo stage, when it is a fetus?

If its an embryo then it should be legal... if its after fetus then too bad, you did it so you pay the price, it should be illegal after that.

[Brainmaster07]

Agree with sudden.

[esupin]

ah- one of the eternal questions that will never be solved peacefully.
You could consider abortion like a "get out of jail free" card. I think some people abuse it- they could easily have the baby and put it up for adoption instead of killing it.
Another thing- you can't be pro-abortion because you think, well, what happens if the baby dies in the mother before it's born? -Because that's a different procedure.

[Reach]

Yea. Sudden said it.

If it isn't alive, then I don't care. Not to sound morbid or anything, but if they're looking for an abortion, its probably best off anyway, because you were most likely born into a family who isn't going to love you or doesn't have what it takes to support you anyway.

[Sudden2]

If it dies in the mother before its born it isnt abortion.

[esupin]

which is what I said.
Most people have an it's not going to happen to me attitude, so they don't really care.

[QreepyBORIS]

Legal? Hell, abortion should be mandatory!

[GuidoHunter]

I think this is a very black and white issue. Life begins at conception, and taking that life is murder. I don't have anything else to say.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

i'm locking this now. it will become a flame war. if you want to read the last abortion thread, search for it. or scroll back 2-3 pages. its 8-9 pages long.

[chardish]

Old abortion thread is over a year old. Just because a discussion is heated doesn't mean it's a flame war.

[Kilgamayan]

I've always been pro-choice, and I probably always will be.

[Privateer]

I've always been pro-choice, and I probably always will be.

The same applies to me.

[blahblah18]

I'm a democrat, but I'm pro-life... probably because I've actually seen an abortion before, and it was truly a horrible thing, you can make out a fetus, and it looks liek a little puddle... But its so easy to say what yo ubelieve in general forms, I don't know how strong against abortion i'd be if my girlfriend got pregnant... it puts a different spin on things

[Moogy]

I've always been pro-choice, and I probably always will be.

The same applies to me.
And to me.

[flypie743]

I've always been pro-choice, and I probably always will be.

The same applies to me.
And to me.

Me as well.

Quoted for Major Emphasis, too. Like supreme-awesome-to the max emphasis.

[chardish]

I support a woman's right to choose to not get pregnant.

[The_Q]

I support the market. Like I said, I'm not only an economist(or striving to be one) but I'm a Libertarian. This means utter belief in the market.

Solution to making abortion legal/illegal issue. Don't touch it. Be apathetic. Then let the people who WANT abortions to have them. The more that want them, the more that find the good, the price goes up. Basically, it'll work out so the number of abortions doesn't flood up. Thus making the pro-life people happier. That, and being pro-life means you don't have to have abortions. It also means you can't decide for other people whether they can have them or not, because it's not the government's job to enforce it!

But, I agree with char for the time being. I'm all for abortions, but the best choice is to abstain completely.

Q

[emccky]

im pro-life always have been always will be. It's not right, don't be stupid enough to get pregnant.

[flypie743]

I support a woman's right to choose to not get pregnant.
Maybe she got raped? Condom/Pills didn't work?

[emccky]

then your stupid. i can understand rape, but the others are just dumb. Maybe special cases for rape victims.

[chardish]

1 in 1000 rapes results in pregnancy.

And as for condoms and pills, it should be understood by everyone that no form of birth control is 100% effective, and that they still need to be mature adults in accepting the outcome of their decisions.

Life begins at conception. This is irrefutable scientific fact.

[emccky]

i agree with chardish.

[Kilgamayan]

Life begins at conception. This is irrefutable scientific fact.

Are you a vegetarian, by any chance?

[blahblah18]

Well its like I said, its easy to say abstain until its you/your girlfriend that gets pregnant... I don't know how to handle it then. And I consider myself also on the path towrads being an economist, but you can't just site that as a catch-all, although I guess if your'e a libertarian then you can try :)

[flypie743]

"Pro-life" people never really think about the kids life, after birth.

Without abortion, a woman/couple would have to have a baby that she doesn't want. Think of how they are going to treat the kid? They will abuse him/her. How would you like a life like that. Full of pain and suffering. Wouldn't you rather have the kid put out of it's misery when it can't even feel anything?

[chardish]

Life begins at conception. This is irrefutable scientific fact.

Are you a vegetarian, by any chance?

Witty, Kilga. And no, I'm not. It's not wrong to regard human life as more precious as animal life.

When I eat eggs, I understand I'm eating chickens.

[QreepyBORIS]

You aren't though. Chicken eggs are unfertilized. So by eating eggs, you are doing no harm to any chicken (unless it is not free range--when it isn't, they are usually force-fed and in ****tier conditions).

[chardish]

"Pro-life" people never really think about the kids life, after birth.

Wrong, we think entirely about the kid's life after birth. Pro-abortion people erroneously believe that a kid's life doesn't begin until birth.

Without abortion, a woman/couple would have to have a baby that she doesn't want.

Not to sound discompassionate, but that's the reason human beings have sex. It's a natural part of life that we reproduce, and it is something we should embrace about humanity rather than reject. It's one of the reasons I'm abstaining from sex until marriage - I want to be overjoyed by news of an unexpected pregnancy, not saddened, depressed, worried, or scared.

And in addition, most women who were considering abortion but decide against it don't regret their choice. The pro-abortion people usually ignore the joy the children bring and focus only on the burdens, seeking to regard them as nuisances.

Think of how they are going to treat the kid? They will abuse him/her.

If you can show me a single fact that supports this I will consider your point. Yet for some reason I was under the impression that child abuse is a result of deep-seeded emotional problems in the parent, not their unreadiness to have children.

How would you like a life like that. Full of pain and suffering. Wouldn't you rather have the kid put out of it's misery when it can't even feel anything?

I don't know why it should be the mother's choice to decide if a kid even gets a fair shot at life. I've actually talked to someone before who grew up on the streets and in homeless shelters and had a really crappy childhood but he got over it and now he's got a productive, happy life. Even Bill Clinton was abused by his dad - and he became President of the United States. Wonderful stories often have dismal beginnings.

[flypie743]

Ha, some president Clinton was.

But that's not the point.

About the abusing. My mom works at a hospital. She is a pediatrician. At clinic, she sees many abused children, meaning the parents could have problems or they could just not want the kid.

Why should it be the government's choice about what a woman does?

PS~You remind me of Mwerp in the post =x

[blahblah18]

ok, so much ammunition, so much laziness, lets see how much I get through... peopel that have a kid but don't want it have nothing to with reasons why we sohuld have abortion. There's a reason we have adoption agencies. I have to completely agree with Chardish and it seems comments were just made without any real justification or any proof backing it up..Don't say that its justification for killing the fetus, to "save it the suffering" the whole point of life is to give it that chance... and remember, you were a fetus once :p

[Kilgamayan]

It's not wrong to regard human life as more precious as animal life.

Why?

[The_Q]

It's not right either. Again, shades of gray.

The point of these discussion is moot. All this is is morals. Morals can't be decided by logic, when it comes down to everything.

Q

[Omeganitros]

It's not right either. Again, shades of gray.

The point of these discussion is moot. All this is is morals. Morals can't be decided by logic, when it comes down to everything.

Q


That's almost exactly like something I would say, back when I could actually saying something in the Critical Forums. Too bad I've lost the spark.

[chardish]

It's not wrong to regard human life as more precious as animal life.

Why?

That's a moral question as to why I'm not a vegetarian, it doesn't refute the fact that life begins at conception.

[Kilgamayan]

Yes, but why regard the life of a fully grown cow as less precious than that of a six-minute old embryo?

Is it because you are of the same species as the baby?

You racist.

[Seniechi]

Wtf.. Its the womans choice. What they make is descision don't like it suck it up.. Most did thats why its legal. Its becoming nice.Live free whiles befor law is flawless.


Spoken

[The_Q]

As a reg, I feel it necessary to point something out, Seniechi. Grammar is good for intellectual conversation. Your post made little sense, and I'd prefer to know what's going on when I'm arguing.

Q

[Tasselfoot]

when was the last time a fetus survived by itself? wait... it CAN'T. a fetus is a parasite that sucks upon the stomach of its host for 9 months until it is forcibly vomited out of said hosts nether mouth.

download George Carlin's Abortion skit.... here are some clips:
"why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are people you wouldn't want to f-ck in the first place?"
"if you're pre-born, you're fine. if you're pre-school, you're f-cked"
"conservatives want live babies to they can raise them to become dead soldiers"
"they'll do anything they can to save a fetus, but if it grows up to be a doctor, they may just have to kill it"
"they aren't pro-life. they are anti-woman. they believe a womans primary function is to act as a brood mare for the state"
"you don't see any of these pro-life women willing to have black fetuses implanted into them"
"you don't see them adopting any crack babies... no, that might be something christ would do"
"and how come when its a human, its an abortion... when its a chicken, its an omelet"

"if a fetus is a human being, how come the census doesn't count them? if a fetus is a human being, how come when there is a miscarriage we don't have a funeral? if a fetus is a human being, how come we say 'we have 2 children and 1 on the way' instead of saying 'we have 3 children'?"

"not every ejaculation deserves a name"

there is plenty more... its 8:41 long. i'd be happy to send the file to anyone who wants it.

also... of all these people who are pro-life... how many of you have ever had sex? because i don't give a rats ass what your opinion is until you are put into a situation where you ACTUALLY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ABORTION. and do not give me any bullcrap about choosing celebacy. thats what ugly people say to make themselves feel better that they can't get laid.

my stance on abortion: i don't care at all about it. i'm a guy. i will never be pregnant. so i don't care at all. its a womans body, she is free to do with it what she wants. i don't want children. and, whorli feels the same as me. birth control works wonders for anyone who is stupid enough to put themselves at risk for abortion. in almost 4 years of having sex, i've used 2, maybe 3, condoms.... if you are smart, you will not get pregnant. it is a moot point.


and, now.... start the flame war, because i'm the first person to start an active anti-prolife stance. i locked this before, but chardish has a hardon for pro-life circlejerks, so he unlocked it.... when the flaming starts, you better believe i will lock it again.

[chardish]

Wtf.. Its the womans choice. What they make is descision don't like it suck it up.. Most did thats why its legal. Its becoming nice.Live free whiles befor law is flawless.

You seem to suggest that a lawless society would be an ideal one.

Yes, but why regard the life of a fully grown cow as less precious than that of a six-minute old embryo? Is it because you are of the same species as the baby?

You continue to argue a moral question that is unrelated to the question of abortion. If I were to claim that all life is equally precious, then feel free to call me a hypocrite. But I don't. I think that human beings are superior. This is why I find preserving them more worthwhile.

If you're simply interested in stirring up controversy, then I have some better questions we can all discuss:

Is killing a 15-year-old less acceptable than killing an unborn child?

Is killing a 6-year-old less acceptable than killing a 15-year-old?

Is it acceptable to kill people without thier consent?

Is it acceptable to kill people without giving them the chance to tell you if they want to be killed or not?

What if you kill people to prevent them from having to suffer in the future? Then is it acceptable to kill them without their consent?

Is it acceptable to assume that the killing victim is happier dead if this makes you feel better about the killing?

Is killing someone acceptable because your life is made more difficult if they continue to exist?

Is it more acceptable to kill someone if you are their mother than if you are their father?

Should fathers be allowed to prevent the killing of their unborn children?

Which is more unacceptable: having to deal with raising a child, or having to deal with the grief of having killed your own child?

Is it unacceptable that abortion clinics do not inform their customers of Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS), a painful depression which affects a staggering number of women who have had abortions, at least a decade after the act, and is psychologically similar to problems experienced by Vietnam War veterans the same amount of time after their ordeal?

Is it unacceptable that no U.S. state requires abortionists to possess medical degrees?

Is it unacceptable that no U.S. state allows fathers to prevent the killing of their unborn children?

If no, then should it be acceptable for fathers to be allowed to force the mothers of their unborn children to kill them?

Which is more unacceptable: a unwilling mother carrying and delivering a child for nine months, or a willing father being unable to rear and raise his own child?

Does Kilgamayan believe it would have been acceptable for his mother to kill him before he was born?

Do Kilgamayan's pro-abortion beliefs come from a regret that he was not killed before he was born?

Does Tasselfoot's referring to pro-lifers as "circlejerks" suggest that he is desperately trying to convince himself that he is in the right?

Does Tasselfoot's referring to the celibate as "ugly" suggest that he is desperately trying to convince himself that he is not?

Does Tasselfoot's referring to the celibate as "unable to get laid" indicate that he is confusing the concepts of not wanting something and not having something?

[blahblah18]

well his point is that you can't use celibacy as a solution because you can't expect the whole of society to follow it, and Tass I believe I said I was pro-life, and I also made the point that its different though a girl i'm with got pregnant.. I don't know what I'd do. Who nkows how strong my convictions really are until they're put to the test

[Tasselfoot]

Does Tasselfoot's referring to pro-lifers as "circlejerks" suggest that he is desperately trying to convince himself that he is in the right?
i didn't refer to them as circlejerks... a circlejerk is a thing. a person would be a circlejerker. and, if you'd like me to rephrase it.... you enjoy threads where everyone shares your opinion, especially in a highly controversial topic such as this. so, in case you are unaware.. a circlejerk is where gay guys sit naked in a circle, and masturbate the person next to them. that is what you are doing here. all of you are stroking each other with how you all agree that abortion is the devil incarnate.

Does Tasselfoot's referring to the celibate as "ugly" suggest that he is desperately trying to convince himself that he is not?
want to see my picture? i'm no model, but i'm definately no where near ugly.

Does Tasselfoot's referring to the celibate as "unable to get laid" indicate that he is confusing the concepts of not wanting something and not having something?
bull. no self respecting man would choose to not have sex. it is the greatest experience anyone can have. think about it as masturbating to the nth degree. so, i don't buy it for 1 second that a guy would choose to not have sex. look at priests. they swear to god that they will not have sex, yet many of them rape young boys because sex is so enjoyable.



edit: blahblah... exactly. you say you are pro-life, but also that you might not be if you got a girl pregnant. how hypocritical can you be? and it goes right back to what i said... if you have never been in a situation where abortion is an issue, then your opinion means less than zero in this discussion, because there is no frame of reference.

[blahblah18]

actually, I do know people that would list it as not teh greatest experience ever, but rather a close second to drugs... and even one or 2 that choose music over it, but jazz junkies aren't real people :p

[Kilgamayan]

You continue to argue a moral question that is unrelated to the question of abortion. If I were to claim that all life is equally precious, then feel free to call me a hypocrite. But I don't. I think that human beings are superior. This is why I find preserving them more worthwhile.

I called you a racist, not a hypocrite. Way to pay attention.

Although I suppose the term would be a "specist" is something.

Is killing a 15-year-old less acceptable than killing an unborn child?

Yes.

Is killing a 6-year-old less acceptable than killing a 15-year-old?

No.

Is it acceptable to kill people without thier consent?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.

Is it acceptable to kill people without giving them the chance to tell you if they want to be killed or not?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.

What if you kill people to prevent them from having to suffer in the future? Then is it acceptable to kill them without their consent?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.

Is it acceptable to assume that the killing victim is happier dead if this makes you feel better about the killing?

One should never assume anything.

Is killing someone acceptable because your life is made more difficult if they continue to exist?

My life? No. But I'm never going to get pregnant. If I was a girl, then f they're aware of what's happening, no.

Is it more acceptable to kill someone if you are their mother than if you are their father?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.

Should fathers be allowed to prevent the killing of their unborn children?

Yes. Whether they succeed or not will obviously vary from case to case, however.

Which is more unacceptable: having to deal with raising a child, or having to deal with the grief of having killed your own child?

It's their choice. Not my place to judge.

Is it unacceptable that abortion clinics do not inform their customers of Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS), a painful depression which affects a staggering number of women who have had abortions, at least a decade after the act, and is psychologically similar to problems experienced by Vietnam War veterans the same amount of time after their ordeal?

Yes.

Is it unacceptable that no U.S. state requires abortionists to possess medical degrees?

Yes.

Is it unacceptable that no U.S. state allows fathers to prevent the killing of their unborn children?

Yes, but again, whether he succeeds or not will vary from case to case.

If no, then should it be acceptable for fathers to be allowed to force the mothers of their unborn children to kill them?

Moot.

Which is more unacceptable: a unwilling mother carrying and delivering a child for nine months, or a willing father being unable to rear and raise his own child?

First one. Father can always have another kid.

Does Kilgamayan believe it would have been acceptable for his mother to kill him before he was born?

If it would have been best for her, yes. If it would have been best for me, yes.

Do Kilgamayan's pro-abortion beliefs come from a regret that he was not killed before he was born?

No.

Those were pretty easy. Got any more?

[blahblah18]

I just don't like the idea that the child is completely the mother's... and i'm not insensitive to the fact that the woman has to carry the baby, but I find it incredibly wrong that if the father wants to have the child that the mother can override the chocie and abort, as opposed to just giving custod to the father, but if the father doesn't want the child, the mother can still have it and then demand support... It just seems like such a double standard, any thoughts or comments?

[Tasselfoot]

it is a double standard blahblah.... its just one more reason why men get sh-t upon. all these civil rights have thrown any semblance of balance out of whack. 100 years ago, it was unbalanced towards men. now its unbalanced towards women. rape, abortion, child support, sexual harrassment, etc. the list goes on.

but, that is a different issue.

[chardish]

bull. no self respecting man would choose to not have sex.

The abstinent do not choose not to have sex, they choose to postpone it.

What a world this would be if everyone ran around naked having sex with whoever they saw. The world would lose all meaning.

The reason you have enjoyed your sexual experiences so much is because you love the person you're performing the reproductive act with (I stress the term "reproductive act.") I understand that 100%, but quite frankly, I want to marry someone before I have sex with them.That's personal opinion, but don't you dare claim that I'm not "self-respecting" because of it.

And I'm beginning to see through your hypocrisy. You locked the thread because it would become a flame war, which it wasn't until you started butting in using loaded language (which I have been markedly reserved in combatting.) Yet, you now seem to suggest that the real reason you locked it is because the majority of the people on this forum agree with a viewpoint that is not your own.

[blahblah18]

Well I think its closely tied together, because its usually the main argument for the Pro-Choicers, so they bring it upon themselves by putting it into the forum saying stuff like "its the woman's chocie" not "it's the couples' choice"

EDIT: touche Chardish, buuut you kinda did rebut him isntead of his points, albeit it was an excellent rebuttal :)

[Kilgamayan]

I just don't like the idea that the child is completely the mother's... and i'm not insensitive to the fact that the woman has to carry the baby, but I find it incredibly wrong that if the father wants to have the child that the mother can override the chocie and abort, as opposed to just giving custod to the father, but if the father doesn't want the child, the mother can still have it and then demand support... It just seems like such a double standard, any thoughts or comments?

The world isn't fair.

[chardish]

Off the bat, I didn't call you a hypocrite. I could play the Kilgamayan game and respond with a simple "Why?" to your responses, but I won't.


Is it acceptable to kill people without thier consent?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.

Is it acceptable to kill people without giving them the chance to tell you if they want to be killed or not?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.


What if you kill people to prevent them from having to suffer in the future? Then is it acceptable to kill them without their consent?

If they're aware of what's happening, no.



Is it acceptable to kill people in their sleep?


Is it acceptable to assume that the killing victim is happier dead if this makes you feel better about the killing?

One should never assume anything.


Is it acceptable to assume that your baby, if allowed to live, would have been happier dead?


Is killing someone acceptable because your life is made more difficult if they continue to exist?

My life? No. But I'm never going to get pregnant. If I was a girl, then f they're aware of what's happening, no.


Is it acceptable to kill someone in their sleep because your life is made more difficult if they continue to exist? Why or why not?

Is it acceptable to kill your three-your-old in her sleep if she is a burden to you? Why or why not?


Should fathers be allowed to prevent the killing of their unborn children?

Yes. Whether they succeed or not will obviously vary from case to case, however.


Should fathers be legally empowered to prevent the killing of their unborn children? Why or why not?

If no, then why are mothers legally empowered to prevent the killing of their unborn children?


Is it unacceptable that abortion clinics do not inform their customers of Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS), a painful depression which affects a staggering number of women who have had abortions, at least a decade after the act, and is psychologically similar to problems experienced by Vietnam War veterans the same amount of time after their ordeal?

Yes.


Is it unacceptable that many pregnancy crisis centers are under the employ of abortion clinics?

Is it unacceptable that they do not inform their clients of this?

Is it unacceptable that employees of many pregnancy crisis centers are instructed to encourage abortion as a first option?


Which is more unacceptable: a unwilling mother carrying and delivering a child for nine months, or a willing father being unable to rear and raise his own child?

First one. Father can always have another kid.


Is it acceptable to grant the mother more authority over the life or death of her child than the father simply because she has to carry and deliver it?


Does Kilgamayan believe it would have been acceptable for his mother to kill him before he was born?

If it would have been best for her, yes. If it would have been best for me, yes.


Is it acceptable for anyone's mother to assume that the death of her child is what's best for the child?


Those were pretty easy. Got any more?

See above.

[Privateer]

This should have a poll with it.

[whorlichan]

A big reason it's the woman's choice is because there is a very small percentage of men who, having gotten a woman pregnant, care enough to want to help raise the child or even support it. It is SUCH a small percentage that it hardly matters--and if you do care that much, you will fight for it.

Ever seen I Am Sam (http://imdb.com/title/tt0277027/), with Sean Penn? Disregarding the major plot of the movie (mentally challenged man fights for custody of his daughter), he is a guy who got a woman pregnant. The woman did NOT want to keep the kid. He convinced her to, and then took over care of the child. How many guys actually do that? Right. I've never met nor personally heard of a one (not counting fiction or movies), whereas I have met and heard of and read about many, many who didn't, and still wouldn't if they faced that choice again.

As a girl, I demand that any guy I'm with be willing to pay for an abortion if we **** up. I let them know in advance that I won't be having any children regardless of pregnancy ****ups in our relationship.

If I were a guy, I'd definitely discuss it with any girl I got pregnant, but I would be willing to pay for an abortion if she wanted one or pay support for the kid if she decided to have it--but I would not stick around to care for it. I just don't like or want kids.

And chardish...a lot of those questions are pretty dumb. The reason the US doesn't demand that abortionists have a medical license is because it's not taught in medical schools. Make it a (more) legal, affordable procedure and teach it correctly, and yes, discuss the post-abortion stress syndromes and depression, etc., and TEACH SAFE SEX instead of JUST ABSTINENCE in schools, and we would have less, not more, abortions. And they would be more numerous early abortions rather than the back-alley partial birth abortions we still sadly have.

[Tasselfoot]

see, its becoming a flame war already.... i honestly feel that all of you are so skewed in your viewpoints its not even funny. pro-life... there are enough crack babies, welfare babies, and abused children already in the US. abortion is by the far the main reason it isn't more prolific. so, if you want to talk economics... the more welfare babies, the more tax money into welfare, the less the government can spend on useful indeavers.

abortion is a last resort for those who are either unwilling, unfit, or unable to go through with childbirth. it is their RIGHT to choose. plain and simple.

with that, i'm done with this thread. i know that i'm right about this, and don't feel like turning into mwerp (except i actually use evidence and new ideas to combat statements in my debating). do what you want with it chardish. have your pro-life circlejerk. kerry better win tonight, because i shudder to think about what our country will become in the next 4 years with bush as our president. from abortion to stem-cell research to the military.

[blahblah18]

heh, you want a flame war, I should offer up the argument me and a friend used in a debate as to why making it legal to sell children is whats needed in America

[djshox]

This has LOCK written all over it, regardless of how it is right now.

[Anticrombie0909]

All pro lifers are extremist idiots that just can't stand anybody else not believing in the same things as they do. Way to rule the country with an iron bible, Bush.

[chardish]

All pro lifers are extremist idiots that just can't stand anybody else not believing in the same things as they do. Way to rule the country with an iron bible, Bush.

It has become clear to me now that you have not read the topic.

[Anticrombie0909]

All pro lifers are extremist idiots that just can't stand anybody else not believing in the same things as they do. Way to rule the country with an iron bible, Bush.

It has become clear to me now that you have not read the topic.

Nope. Read a page, decided I'd read enough, decided to throw on some flamebait. GG me.

[blahblah18]

ok, I'm a democrat, I'm pro-life, I think for myself, and am not an automaton that follows partylines 100 %... you don't ifnd it odd at all that of all the choices on all uissues, the probability distribution is mainl 2 outcomes? perhaps 3? Way to absolutely lose and perpetrate all that is wrong with the American voter... and by the way
GG

[Anticrombie0909]

ok, I'm a democrat, I'm pro-life, I think for myself, and am not an automaton that follows partylines 100 %... you don't ifnd it odd at all that of all the choices on all uissues, the probability distribution is mainl 2 outcomes? perhaps 3? Way to absolutely lose and perpetrate all that is wrong with the American voter... and by the way
GG

what

[Kefit]

Always have been pro-choice, always will be.

That being said, this debate is completely pointless, since it comes down to where one defines human life to begin, which is a belief that it is very unlikely to be changed for any of us.

[jtd89]

people should do what they want...the ony thing i think is that they should go eith the 3 month law

[blahblah18]

well yeah, partial-birth abortions are just *shudder*

[tsutter]

It's not like anyone is forcing the woman to get an abortion. If she got pregnant without wanting her to, would you rather her be tormented by having a child she couldnt support/didn't want (possibly leading to the child getting abused)? Abortion is 100% the womans choice, and if she wants to have an abortion, go for it.

[Aedak]

Welll well well... Let's see here. I guess haven't use the forums enough...

I'm pro-abortion, pro-business, and a hardcore atheist/rationalist (as well as a ton of other things that probably contradict popular opinion). On the topic of abortion, if it is within the first or second tri-mester, I do not see the problem of having an abortion. To be perfetly honest, I don't consider pre-birth as a child at all anyway, so it's all fair game.

As for my reasons:

First, there is the fact that birth control is already out there, along with emergency kits, both perfectly legal.

Second, it should be the woman's choice whether or not to have a baby. As others have said, it's better not to bring a child into the world of neither of you is ready for it... we have enough problems with underaged prenancy's these days to ban abortion.

Third, there is the case of rape. A woman gets raped, she should NOT be forced to keep the child. The amount of psychological damage done with sexual assault is great enough, but raising such a child puts the mother in even greater distress for the years ahead.

That's my two cents, take it or leave it folks.

Aedak

PS: Tsutter, I like your avatar... Elfen Lied... Nice! :) Not many people know about the anime.

[tsutter]

Ahh Aedak, you seem to be another intelligent poster...FFR needs you. XD I feel basically the same way about abortion, especially if she's been sexually assaulted there's no way you should force the burden of a child AS WELL as the mental burden of getting raped. Touchy subject though, is it not?

PS: Elfen Lied rules your face :p

[The_Q]

Isn't that what I said? Make no laws against it or laws for it. Then let the market have at it. It's that simple. It's called "libertarianism."

Whoa, I went on a credit rampage. Sorry, folks. I just feel the need to post this anyway.

Q

[blahblah18]

ok, so people can actually know what they're talking about before posting ... when a woman is raped or sexually assaulted her "private part" contracts, which makes it night impossible to get pregnant, the odds are worse then 1000 in 1, and pro-life stances even allow for abortions to those rare pregnant rape victims, so Case Closed on that point.. Refer to the above point I made abotu a child being a joint part of the mother and the father, and what right does the woman have to abort the child if the father wants the kid.. It is such a double standard and if you can't see that, oh well. Thirdly, what does the existence of birth control have to do with abortions, unless you're talking about RU-486 (teh morning after pill) but I'm pretty sure that isn't what you mean at all.. its realyl not a touchy subject unless people start flaming it and saying "I'm pro-abortion, you're an evil demon if you think otherwise" that's just being narrow-minded.. that's enogh for now, faretheewell

[Aedak]

What? Can you slow down and use sentences with more periods ending them Blah? (Hard to folllow) :(

You brought up contractions I see, but what does that have to do with rape? The odds of getting pregnant depend on how fertile the woman is, and how far along her period she is; as with regular sex, rape doesn't change anything, she would be just las likely to get pregnant at that state in time if it were not rape.

The reason I brought up birth control was to point out there are other ways to prevent pregnancy that are legal and available; and only an idiot wouldn't see the logic there.. (Of course they will complain about baby devolopment and say this is human and this isn't - not really for them to decide though).

Anyways, I don't think of it as a touchy subject. I consider myself pretty open about everything, so feel free to ask me about Atheism and I'll be sure to rant for a few hundred pages. ;)

[GuidoHunter]

All of y'all's points are well and good for arguing purposes, but I really don't see why nobody's spoken about the implications of consciously ending an innocent human life. Ay, there's the rub. I don't like the idea of a child just being a nuisance to the parent/s, either, but more vile is the idea of condoning baby-killing.

[/Conservative Guido]

[Libertarian Guido]

Listen to Q, he's got the right idea.

[/Libertarian Guido]

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Kilgamayan]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v150/RockNRoll1822/Pregnant.jpg

All of y'all's points are well and good for arguing purposes, but I really don't see why nobody's spoken about the implications of consciously ending an innocent human life. Ay, there's the rub. I don't like the idea of a child just being a nuisance to the parent/s, either, but more vile is the idea of condoning baby-killing.

Re-read chardish's posts.

[Aedak]

All of y'all's points are well and good for arguing purposes, but I really don't see why nobody's spoken about the implications of consciously ending an innocent human life. Ay, there's the rub. I don't like the idea of a child just being a nuisance to the parent/s, either, but more vile is the idea of condoning baby-killing.


If you want to talk about it like that, why don't we call all the women who use the morning after pill, or better than that.. all women on birth control are killing the innocent as well?... Hmm? Ending an innocent human life? I don't know where you get your logic from, you could say a woman taking birth control is ending the lives of sperm that can't find an egg. Is that killing the innocent as well? Until a human lifeform has conscious thought, it should not even be comparable to murder or killing an innocent... I remember someone trying to compare killing a 12 year old or a 6 year old, it's not even a comparison... The lifeform doesn't have conscious thought.

I'm curious, what do you think of people who eat chicken eggs with partially developed chicks inside?

[djshox]

AEDAK WINS KTHXBAI

[GuidoHunter]

All of y'all's points are well and good for arguing purposes, but I really don't see why nobody's spoken about the implications of consciously ending an innocent human life. Ay, there's the rub. I don't like the idea of a child just being a nuisance to the parent/s, either, but more vile is the idea of condoning baby-killing.


If you want to talk about it like that, why don't we call all the women who use the morning after pill, or better than that.. all women on birth control are killing the innocent as well?... Hmm? Ending an innocent human life? I don't know where you get your logic from, you could say a woman taking birth control is ending the lives of sperm that can't find an egg. Is that killing the innocent as well? Until a human lifeform has conscious thought, it should not even be comparable to murder or killing an innocent... I remember someone trying to compare killing a 12 year old or a 6 year old, it's not even a comparison... The lifeform doesn't have conscious thought.

I'm curious, what do you think of people who eats chicken eggs with partially developed chicks inside?

Okay, I apologize for not reading the first four pages before I post; that's a horrible thing to do in this forum. That said, go back and read, Aedak.

As a matter of fact, I do think the morning after pill is tantamount to abortion. As for the sperm, they're not human lifeforms. Those who deny life beginning at conception are just being ignorant.

As for the chicken business, read what chardish had to say. That's where I stand, too.

ALSO, that was a really bold thing to say, Tassel, about the celibate. "No self-respecting man would choose not to have sex", was it? Well, like chardish said, it's just postponing it, but I doubt that that's what you were trying to say. I am one of the biggest proponents of abstinence that you'll find, and not only do I choose not to have sex, but when I DID, I lost some self-respect. Anyway, I was quite surprised at that.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Tasselfoot]

Guido... there were 3 reasons for that statement. 1. i was in the middle of a rant... i tend to have diarrhea of the mouth when on rants. 2. i wanted to spark some controversy 3. a part of me doesn't get why someone would not want to experience sex. like American Pie... that is exactly what i was like for about 2 years before getting laid.

[I_Skate_Element]

I Think It Should Be Illegal.

[emccky]

Abortion is for people that are stupid enough to get pregnant then not want a child. So away with abortion.

[Privateer]

That was one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. I've lost all living respect for you emccky.

[QreepyBORIS]

That was one of the most ignorant statements I've ever heard. I've lost all living respect for you emccky.

I am shocked you had respect for him at ALL.

[emccky]

How can you say abortion is right..?

[Aedak]

Abortion is for people that are stupid enough to get pregnant then not want a child. So away with abortion.

How can you say abortion is right..?

No, how can you say it is wrong? Did you read any of my posts here?
Rape is not a victimless crime, a woman should not be forced to keep the child of a rapist. It looks like emccky is more concerned with his post count than making valid points or arguments, just ignore him.

[emccky]

you continue to go back to rape as your arguement. If you read any of my posts about rape before, I said there should be a special instance for rape victims. Everyone else is retarded.

[Aedak]

Everyone else is retarded? This is true, but nobody should have to keep a child. Adopted and orphaned children lead much unhealthier lives, both physically and psychologically.. It's not worth putting someone through that. That is why abortions are there, so people don't make the mistake of bringing another person into this world when they can't support them, or aren't ready to support them.

Anti-Abortionist arguments are selfish.

[rdrew4]

I'm pro abortion unless its being used as a birth control method. In rape cases abortion should be used if disired by the woman. I think that it can also be used by other women too. If, for instance, a woman and a man used every means of protection to prevent a pregnancy and yet it still somehow happened..... what if this couple isn't ready for a child or can't afford the child? They should have the option to abort the child before it becomes a fetus.

Thats my two cents... :D

[blahblah18]

Everyone needs to stop using rape as an argument, first of all aedak, laern the physiological ideas behind it, when a woman has sex in fear or anger, her uterus contracts and makes it nigh impossible to become pregnant, and even if she did, all the pro-lifers grant that as a special exception anyways... so move on

[Aedak]

Everyone needs to stop using rape as an argument, first of all aedak, laern the physiological ideas behind it, when a woman has sex in fear or anger, her uterus contracts and makes it nigh impossible to become pregnant, and even if she did, all the pro-lifers grant that as a special exception anyways... so move on

Physiological Ideas? Women have contractions regardless of emotion during sex, as well as orgasms causing contractions.. Do you even understand how women become pregnant? Contractions actually help move sperm forward, propelling them towards their goal. Before you try telling me to learn the physiology behind it, you should know your own facts first and learn how to spell. :)

Regardless of contractions or not, the point remains that rape is a completely valid point in this argument... Telling me to stop using it in my argument is I see as an attempt to refute evidence because you think abortion is wrong but don't want to admit cases in which it is. I don't know where you stand but I'm over halfway through college and have learned a great deal about psychology, philosphy, and physiology.. plus more. =\

[JurseyRider734]

Wow. You are all men. Idiots.

How about a woman's point of view?

When a woman gets pregnant, no matter how old they are, they usually(hopefully) would feel strongly about the safety of their baby they are carrying. If I ever got pregnant, I would never get an abortion. It's the killing of an innocent child. Also known as murder. If you had any religious qualities, you would know its against one of The Ten Commandments. The people that are being selfish are the pro-abortion people. They don't care about the life of the baby growing inside the woman. I actually agree with emccky, the only reason I would slightly THINK about abortion was if I was raped. Also, rape can somewhat be avoided. Ever hear of self-defense? If you're worried about being raped, take some god damned martial arts. God. Men don't know anything about how a woman feels.

[Kilgamayan]

And what if the father wanted an abortion because he knew the family couldn't afford it, but the mother refused?

[GuidoHunter]

@Aedak: Where the hell did you get that point about adopted children leading worse lives? I have several adopted friends who live as if their adopted parents were their real ones. Also, parents who adopt usually want a child to love and rear.

@blahblah: ALL pro-lifers make an exception for rape? Sorry, but not this one. I know it's bad to say that, but I can't get past the baby killing part.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[blahblah18]

well I meant legislation wise

[QreepyBORIS]

And what if the father wanted an abortion because he knew the family couldn't afford it, but the mother refused?

What do you do for a woman when at a revolving door?

[Kilgamayan]

Let her go first.

(And yes, I knew the meaning behind the question.)

[Aedak]

Where the hell did you get that point about adopted children leading worse lives?

It's common knowledge in the psychological and scientific community. I didn't say all adopted children lead worse lives, but it is well-known that the trauma caused by it scars for life, and can be easier for children to not have the best lives.

I have several adopted friends who live as if their adopted parents were their real ones. Also, parents who adopt usually want a child to love and rear.

PTSD - If you don't know what that is, look it up: http://library.adoption.com/Post-Traumatic-Stress-Disorder/Going-and-Growing-Through-Grief-and-Loss/article/323/1.html

ALL pro-lifers make an exception for rape? Sorry, but not this one. I know it's bad to say that, but I can't get past the baby killing part.

Clarification: It is an undeveloped fetus, not a baby. You cannot compare the two, it's like comparing apples to oranges.

[emccky]

Aedak that is the stupidest thing ever. You once also were an undeveloped fetus, and just think, you could have died because of abortion. How does that feel?

[Kilgamayan]

We were all once single-celled organisms, were we not? Why do we kill other beings that were also once single-celled organisms?

[blahblah18]

umm you can make statistics for anything, adopted cvhildren don't lead worse lvies, dont' make blanket statemetns, in fact my sister is adopted, and this is a run-on sentence so there. The adoption process is very long and very rigorous and its ridiculous to say because they won't be as happy they sholdn't be born... that logic also says "poor peopel sohuldn't be allowed to ahve kdis because they would lead a worse life then a kid in a very rich family" Its about drawing the line of rights vs qualityy of life.. come on and actually consider alternates and extrapolations to your arguments before you make them..

[Aedak]

I didn't die as an undeveloped fetus, that is the point. Don't talk about the past like that, it's pointless.
You guys don't even listen to arguments, you completely dismiss it. Ignorance at it's best right here, I'm not even going to dignify the others in this thread any longer with replies.

[emccky]

Your being a complete asshole. You don't realize you were an undeveloped fetus at one time? You're saying oh well, no one killed me, its ok to kill the next kid thats coming out though.

[Kilgamayan]

Survival of the fittest.

[emccky]

yea, survival of the fittest. A doctor is superior to a fetus, who infact could end up finding the cure to AIDS or some other insane thing...

[Kilgamayan]

Who's to say any one of the countless animals and plants we destroy every day doesn't contain a similar cure?

[JurseyRider734]

Well then don't kill them :O

[emccky]

you still need humans to figure out the cure from the animals.

[Kilgamayan]

You still need the animals for the cure.

[emccky]

ok well when the next animal you see tells you that they have something you need, let me know. And, you don't even know if the animal will have the cure, you're just making random **** because you can't back up your arguement on abortion.

[Kilgamayan]

Well, when the next undeveloped fetus you see tells me they'll be able to develop a cure for AIDS one day, let me know. And, you don't even know if the undeveloped fetus will have that cure...well, I think you see where this is going.

[emccky]

There's a whole hell of a better chance for a human to find the cure to aids then a sheep.

[QreepyBORIS]

Let her go first.

(And yes, I knew the meaning behind the question.)

But, that's like asking her to hold it for YOU.

da fux

[QreepyBORIS]

yea, survival of the fittest. A doctor is superior to a fetus, who infact could end up finding the cure to AIDS or some other insane thing...

I guess we better have all 300 million sperm reach an egg--one of them might have the cure to AIDS!

Or they might overpopulate the Earth, really quickly.


Double post. :<

[Privateer]

Hopefully you read this entire post before responding to it...

One of the stupider comments I'm sick of hearing is the one that asks if I would care if I was aborted as an underdeveloped fetus. Of course I wouldn't care, because I'm not even ****ing developed. You can't ask that.

I find it interesting that some of you value other animals less than humans, and value undeveloped humans more than those animals? Full-grown animals do much more for us than unborn babies, anyway (more than just for food).

Anyway, I really don't care about arguing about this, because I know I won't change anybody's mind. I am just angry that so many people feel that abortion should be outlawed. I don't mind people being against it, and by all means, follow your beliefs, but don't put it on the people that think otherwise.

There are a lot of situations where a baby just shouldn't be born; where it would be put through more pain having to survive in compromised living conditions than just killing it, though I know many of you could argue various things against that. Some could mention how I'm not capable of deciding what the baby wants and whatever, so I'll just leave this point alone.

Oh and the probability of a woman getting pregnant as a result of rape makes no difference. As long as its a possible scenario, the rules have to be the same, regardless of the chances.

Now this next point I want to make is kind of a long one, and I don't know if it'll make sense, but try to follow me here if you feel like it...
Religion can play a bigger role in this issue than people think. Assume abortion is outlawed. There could truly be people who believe that giving up custody of their own child is wrong, that it's against the rules of their religion. Remember, putting up a child for adoption is the only legal alternative to retaining custody/responsibility for the child. Now the only religious "rule" that could be had by anybody that would outlaw abortion is one that says the follower of the religion must not allow for murder. Meaning, it's against their religion to allow for murders to occur, which apparently involves abortions. That is the only religious belief that conflicts with abortions being legal. Now not only are murders unrelated to abortions occur anyway, but abortions could happen illegally anyway.

Whatever, I don't know if any of this post made sense. I kind of just typed it as I was thinking. I don't feel like closely proofreading it, because like I said somewhere above, I know I won't change anybody's mind on the issue.

[emccky]

you say that as if you don't care a human DIES everytime someone has an abortion.

[Kilgamayan]

You don't care when countless animals die.

Some pro-lifer you are.

[blahblah18]

hey, I feel that I cna be pro-life and lvoe eating meat, I really dont' see the contradiction... we are by nature omnivores

[emccky]

when did i ever say i don't care when animals die?

[Kilgamayan]

You value them less than undeveloped fetuses.

Which makes no logical sense, because the animal is superior in almost every possible facet.

[Aedak]

you say that as if you don't care a human DIES everytime someone has an abortion.

A human doesn't die with every abortion... why is our youth so ignorant?
One more attempt to enlighten some idiots... hold on.

[Privateer]

you say that as if you don't care a human DIES everytime someone has an abortion.

I don't.

Humans die for reasons we can help anyway. If a person has to unwillingly pay money, why don't they pay for someone suffering already than someone who hasn't even been born yet?

[Privateer]

This is like, the second double-post of my life, so cut me some slack.You value them less than undeveloped fetuses.

Which makes no logical sense, because the animal is superior in almost every possible facet.

I find it interesting that some of you value other animals less than humans, and value undeveloped humans more than those animals? Full-grown animals do much more for us than unborn babies, anyway (more than just for food).

:)

Oh and I think partial-birth abortions should be legal too, among other things. My morals are much...different than most. There are other differences between pro-lifers and pro-choicers that you should talk about when discussing what they disagree on.

[emccky]

well, im done argueing. my brain hurts.

[Aedak]

Here we go again... I'll explain why we can never agree, but why both sides have valid points.

"Whether or not abortion should be legal turns on the answer to the question of whether and at what point a fetus is a person. This is a question that cannot be answered logically or empirically. The concept of personhood is neither logical nor empirical: It is essentially a religious, or quasi-religious idea, based on one's fundamental (and therefore unverifiable) assumptions about the nature of the world."
"The real question today is not when human life begins, but, 'What is the value of human life?'

The media, religious leaders, and others often emphasize uncompromising differences between pro-life and pro-choice beliefs. But, in reality, the two sides agree on almost everything:

An ovum is alive and contains human DNA. Thus, it is a form of human life.
An ovum is not a human person.
Similarly a spermatozoa is a form of life.
A spermatozoa is not a human person.
At or shortly after conception, a fertilized ovum is a form of human life. It is alive and has human DNA.
A pre-embryo is a form of human life, but not a human person.
An embryo is a form of human life, but not a human person.
A fetus is a form of human life, but not a human person.
A newborn baby is a form of human life.
A newborn baby is a human person.

Somewhere during the nine months between the ovum-spermatozoa stage and the newborn baby, human personhood begins.
After human personhood has begun, an abortion should not be allowed, except under very unusual circumstances, such as to save the life of the woman, or perhaps to avoid serious long-term injury to the woman.

The only real differences between pro-lifers and pro-choicers involves two questions:
"When does human personhood begin?"
Most pro-lifers believe it happens at conception.
Most pro-choicers say that it happens later in pregnancy, or perhaps at birth.
"After personhood has begun, under which conditions is an abortion a moral choice?"
A small minority believe that an abortion is never a moral choice, even to save the life of the woman.
Some would limit abortions to cases where the woman's life was in danger.
Some would allow abortions in cases where the woman's health was seriously at risk and/or the risk of permanent disability is high.
Some would allow abortions in cases where conception occurred after rape or during an incestuous relationship.

[Privateer]

That thing I mentioned about how you have to bring up more points about the differences between the two sides was in reference to what was said AFTER my post. Aedak edited his original post and reposted it.

[drunkenfool]

abortion is the biggest controvertial issue ever......no one is right no one is wrong
i feel that abortion is good only in the eye of the beholder
do what you want...within the law

[zildjian133]

Would you have aborted Hitler(completely out of curiosity)? I don't believe abortion is cold blooded killing unlike some people.... but its a never ending paradox in my mind... Another question: Is it more right to die after living a life? or more right to die before you've had a chance to live a life or know anything? die before you are even self aware?

[Aedak]

Would you have aborted Hitler(completely out of curiosity)? I don't believe abortion is cold blooded killing unlike some people.... but its a never ending paradox in my mind... Another question: Is it more right to die after living a life? or more right to die before you've had a chance to live a life or know anything? die before you are even self aware?

Hypothetically, if I had been there and could have kept Hitler from being born, I would not have. First of all, we do not know the repercussions of doing such a thing. Another leader may have risen to power and done worse, or we might not have learned anything from World War II.. who knows? The possibilities are endless..

Just as we can talk about an unborn child, there is no way to say what path one will take. The problem with this question is, we could not have had Hitler aborted, so the question is then irrelevent.
It is not possible to know the future of an unborn child, therefore it is easier to make a choice whether or not to abort a pregnancy. Whether or not the child *could* (special emphasis on the could, because you CANNOT possibly know so it is irrelevent) become important because he had a chance is also irrelevent. Since there is no way to know what kind of person would develop, it is futile to debate this further. If you cannot grasp this idea I'm sorry.. but this is the CT forum.

People are going to have their own opinions, and with such a sensitive subject nobody is going to change their minds. However, if you ask me, choice is the most important thing of all.. if you take away choice, neither side will ever be satisfied. There are three options, regardless of how ridiculous they sound.. hear me out. These are not my opinions, I'm listing options so people understand why I choice is better than none at all; and that we will have to agree to disagree.


1: Mandate abortion for certain circumstances such as rape, you have no choice, your unborn child will be put to death. Neither pro-lifers or pro-choicers are happy, except maybe some radical people with much different morals, could be someone who knows.

2: The choice to have abortion for instances such as rape, unwanted pregnancies and such... Can keep children from growing up in an unhealthy atmosphere (no father, poor family, etc.), but religious folk and pro-lifers are outraged - pro-choice are appeased.

3: No choice to have an abortion, rapists have children they don't know about all over the world, more teenage and adult pregnancies, unwanted children; pro-lifers and religious are appeased, pro-choicers outraged.


It's a win-lose situation how ever you look at it... nobody will ever be happy regardless... This topic is no longer worth debating, thank you and good day.

[zildjian133]

I don't know why you were so offensive with that question, its just a question that I was curious about. Think about it this way, you didn't say this but its almost like "I would not stop Hitler if I had the chance" see what I'm saying? Abortion is such a weird subject. No offense to you or anybody, its just a hypothetical situation I am curious about.

[Aedak]

I don't know why you were so offensive with that question, its just a question that I was curious about. Think about it this way, you didn't say this but its almost like "I would not stop Hitler if I had the chance" see what I'm saying? Abortion is such a weird subject. No offense to you or anybody, its just a hypothetical situation I am curious about.

Who said I took offense? I didn't. I analyzed your question as you asked it, hypothetically, and answered it.

--- Discussion is over ---